[arevno]

> the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place

Touch typists always have to get their dig in.

I've been using vim for 5 years now and still use up/dn/lf/rt - it's easier to find in a tactile manner with the right keyboard and makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl. It's like 80ms travel, worst case.

Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain.

[eviks]

> it's easier to find in a tactile manner

It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier.

> makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl > Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain

Don't repeat the ancient hjkl mistake? What does your brain say to this simple counter? But more importantly, how does any of the numpad+/F6 nonsense follow from the fact that you can improve within the letters?

> It's like 80ms travel

I bet you didn't really time anything in real use, especially not the return timing to go back to the base, which will take you longer. But more importantly, go convince the "every fraction of a second matters" guy first. To me the lack of design logic/convenience is enough.

[Kon5ole]

>It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier

You still need to find them unless your hand is glued to the resting keys and even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl, and even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim.

(It can't be objectively measured of course but I am convinced anyone who can use vim without thinking has spent more time learning vim than they gained from using vim for other things) ;-)

[eviks]

> unless your hand is glued to the resting keys

It is, the hint is in the name!

> even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl

So? Use the other resting keys, resting is key here, not their labels

> even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim.

Sorry, but your knowledge of the software world is too shallow, there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers.

Also you can use them universally in all apps with an extra modifier (right alt to do everything with a single hand), so

> gained from using vim for other thing

will literally include every single app that uses cursor keys

[Kon5ole]

>It is, the hint is in the name!

Just about any line of text I write daily uses symbols not reachable from the resting position, and once my hand has left that position the arrow keys are easier to find. (Inverted T of course, with home/end/pgdown/pgup cluster).

>there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers

The point is that you ("you" in this case being a typical user, not you personally) will open applications every day where hjkl does nothing at all with the cursor, and you have to use the arrow keys anyway. This is mental friction that remains even after you spent years internalizing the hjkl cursor moving flaw.

Faced with this situation a user can choose to either use the arrow keys in vim, or go full Stockholm syndrome and change the default in every other piece of software to match vim.

If that seems like a good idea, it might be worth remembering that the creator of vi didn't choose hjkl because he thought it superior to using arrow keys - he did it because the computer he used had no arrow keys! ;-)

[eviks]

> Just about any line of text I write daily uses symbols not reachable from the resting position

Use a better setup! No-one forces you to use bad defaults and think everything must be bad. Also, there are no such symbols even on standard setup, all of the number row keys/symbols are reachable with individual fingers, so you never miss the resting place, it's a couple of fingers moving back and forth.

> my hand has left that position the arrow keys are easier to find. (Inverted T of course, with home/end/pgdown/pgup cluster

It didn't, a couple of your fingers did. But also, why did you ignore the F6, numpad+ etc hand dance and only focus on the arrow keys?

> "you" in this case being a typical user

A typical user doesn't use vim. A real user using vim is perfectly capable of basic keyboard rebinding

> This is mental friction that remains even after you spent years internalizing the hjkl cursor moving flaw.

No, it goes away after you spend minutes oiling your system to remove friction. (Of course, it may still take years of ignorance before that...)

> change the default in every other piece of software to match vim.

Or you change the default once system-wide. See, reality is much simpler than your fantasy!

> the creator of vi didn't choose hjkl because he thought it superior

So? You're the only one here stuck on hjkl because for some reason you can't comprehend that it's just a config, not a mandatory commandment passed down by the Vim prophet.

[Kon5ole]

>Use a better setup!

Even if you only use your own computer, customizing the basics is a bit of a trap in many ways.

First you need to find a different setup that is actually better, not just different. Then you need to build muscle memory for it, then you need to never use any other computer because they will not have your setup.

I think getting good at using the defaults is better than changing the defaults. Basically learn to play the guitar, even if it's hard.

I customize things too, but take care to make it additive, not transformative. Aliases, plugins, better software and such are fine, but messing with my muscle memory is just not worth it.

>Also, there are no such symbols even on standard setup

That depends on the standard. In some countries you need two hands to type an @, just to take one example. For US english the numpad is a good example though. Not so easy to find the home keys from the numpad, but your hand passes the arrow keys on the way. :)

>why did you ignore the F6, numpad+ etc hand dance and only focus on the arrow keys?

Because I'm mainly making a counterpoint to your claim that using hjkl was better than using the arrow keys.

It has admittedly grown to a more general anti-bikeshedding rant fuelled by my own bikeshedding regrets - so I better stop here. :)

[Izkata]

Fun fact: hjkl are in the same order as the arrows on screen in Dance Dance Revolution.

[zahlman]

Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd

esdf would be better (using stronger fingers). I don't like hjkl either and would use ijkl if I were non-lazy enough to figure out rebinding. I can remember many games for the Apple ][ used ijkm.

[tremon]

Nobody has their index finger on the F when using wasd navigation. The reason wasd was chosen is because of the position of ctrl, alt and space (also common in games): with the hand on esdf, the ctrl and alt keys are quite hard to reach; but with the index finger on the D, the thumb can easily switch between alt and space, and the pinky can access ctrl and shift.

btw this is why vi used hjkl for navigation: https://catonmat.net/why-vim-uses-hjkl-as-arrow-keys

[zahlman]

> Nobody has their index finger on the F when using wasd navigation.

Yes, but they would while editing text, and the context of this was the idea of drawing inspiration from other control systems for a text editor UI.

The choice of key labeling on that terminal implies that there was a pre-existing convention, but the article doesn't go into any detail about that.

[tracker1]

In early, original Doom/Doom2 days, I'd use ctrl/shift as up/down with zx mapped to left right... resting my left hand there felt really comfortable and the actions were pretty easy functionally without as much RSI strain. In the end, I gave up and went with wasd as I got tired of changing settings for games all the time, or having someone else use my computer and complain.

[jack_pp]

gaming defaulted to wasd because you only use one hand.

hjkl makes a ton of sense considering the j key on all keyboards has a tactile feel, it is way easier than arrows which are a whole lot more than 80ms travel for the move + finding the home row again.

but you're probably just rage baiting