[MisterTea]

I was in Spain last month and what stood out is that walkability requires mom and pop stores as well as more integrated neighborhoods with small commercial shops mixed into residential. Small shops seemed to be the majority in the city centers. The only large store I saw was a Lidl. They have largeish indoor markets that are more like a mini mall of individual shops like a butcher, produce, baker, cheese, even restaurants and bars. And these are located in a neighborhood center serving the surrounding community.

The thing that kills walkability in the USA are the hyper scale stores and malls where everyone wants a mega store that has everything - one stop shops. They are too big to fit in small neighborhoods so they have to be built in a commercial district or large strip mall. And since they are big and house many shoppers at once they need big parking lots. Then they need big streets to feed those big parking lots. These big ass stores DEMAND cars and are very much a part of the problem.

If you want more walkability then incentivize lots of small shops over single giant shops. I would also argue that neighborhoods that are all residential for blocks and blocks are another problem so zoning should force a minimal commercial allotment to ensure walkable neighborhoods.

[thekyle]

I think big box stores are popular largely because it would be inconvenient to drive between many smaller shops just to find the same variety of goods. It’s the same dynamic we see with car-dependent shopping malls, where the main advantage is being able to park once and visit multiple stores. If instead you had to re-park at each individual store, the experience would be far less convenient.

But if a town is designed to be fully walkable so that people can easily walk from store to store (similar to the experience of shopping inside a indoor mall), then I think the appeal of large one-stop-shop stores is greatly reduced.

[prmoustache]

"so that people can easily walk from store to store (similar to the experience of shopping inside a indoor mall), "

That is funny to read that, because indoor malls were meant to replicate the experience of shopping in a commercial area in a city, not the opposite.

It actually failed though. I feel terrible, sleepy and only want to get out after more than half an hour in these indoor malls. Probably something that has to do with artificial light and aircons.

[an_aparallel]

The gruen transfer...look it up :)

[prmoustache]

Interesting. I guess the loud music and high temperature in some clothing stores is meant to achieve the same. They look like methofs law inforcement would use in an hostage situation.

In my case it gives me the urge of leaving as soon as possible. I could see how it could create impulse buy but most of the time I go to a shopping mall, it is to be able to try out clothing before buying and I will just lose patience and go away if it doesn't fit well. I tend to avoid them as much as I can anyway.

[MisterTea]

> But if a town is designed to be fully walkable

That is the point here. And do you always need to do all your shopping at once?If things were more walkable you can defer some shopping to other days.

[kccqzy]

You go to Midtown Manhattan and you continue to find plenty of chain stores like Target. Large scale stores are fine. Just don't dedicate space to parking. If you must, use underground parking garages not surface parking lots. You can cater to lots of shoppers if you assume shoppers will walk there or take public transportation.

[WorldMaker]

It's easy to forget the large Department Store started in downtown areas with plentiful multi-story buildings. We tend to remember the few that remain now as the anchors at the ends of malls, but they started as more natural vertical extensions of urban development.

[piva00]

> They have largeish indoor markets that are more like a mini mall of individual shops like a butcher, produce, baker, cheese, even restaurants and bars.

It's very common all over Europe, they are simply called "markets".

[oblio]

Yeah, that's hilarious, that's what markets ARE. That's how they were created. Like, thousands of years ago.

[goosejuice]

Mixed use zoning and some rules on what businesses can open would go a long way. Where I live I can walk to a small downtown that spans a few blocks with a train station. Unfortunately there is no where to buy groceries. There's like 3 ice cream shops, 3 pizza joints, and 9 salons though.

[ajmurmann]

Is there no demand for grocery stores? Seems like they naturally would pop up to fill demand

[bombcar]

Grocery stores are pretty low-margin, and need a certain amount of demand (for the size Americans are used to).

Some convenience stores get moderately close to being a grocery store.

It'd be an interesting experiment to see how few products you could carry (and of course, only one of each type) and have people still willing to shop there.

[ajmurmann]

American-sized grocery stores are relatively new though. When I lived in Germany downtowns had plenty of smaller, specialized stores. There'd be several small butchers, small bakeries and sometimes even a fish monger. Stores that carried produce would usually beer less specialized but there still would be plenty of small ones like Spa and Edeka used to have small locations in walkable areas. And of course proper markets at various frequencies.

[goosejuice]

> It'd be an interesting experiment to see how few products you could carry

Liquor store comes to mind. There are two cigar shops, two wine shops and a beer shop downtown. Just weird priorities I guess.

[bombcar]

I meant specifically what the smallest size you could get and people would still see you as a grocery store.

Basically, what is the minimum things you need for them to carry?

[goosejuice]

We have a very large number of grocery stores. They just aren't in walking distance of the downtown area. So there's demand, but apparently not enough for a bodega with produce.

[underlipton]

I don't know about that. There have been large grocery stores and retailers in Washington DC for years, and walkability is fine. It's most comfortable when it's just one or two in a neighborhood, of course, but a block's a block.

[mr3martinis]

Major retailers for sure but DC stores are typically more compact than their suburban counterparts. IMO it’s great. I far prefer the small WF in Logan Circle to a giant one in NOVA - it’s much faster to get in and out and still has everything I need.

[thuridas]

I would say that the causality goes in the other direction. We have big stores Carrefour and even some Coscos, but not in the middle of walkable cities.