[normalaccess]

But they are the best set of laws invented by humans so far for self governance. No kings, no popes, no dictators. As flawed as the current system is, the laws are good even if the people executing them are trash.

You can change lots of things much higher up in the system without taking away our God given rights enshrined in the founding documents to fix these kinds of issues.

[ToucanLoucan]

Hell of an assertion to make when the laws have given rise to an administration that, by virtue of loading the courts, have effectively mimicked the exact sort of power plays one expects from a dictator, up to and including allusions from the leader about not having the next election.

[normalaccess]

The constitution is not a list of rights the people have, it's a list of rights the Government Doesn't have. You want to add government to fix government? Or take rights away to support your own chosen party? That's a fools errand.

It's easy to spot a problem, but very hard to get the right solution.

[ToucanLoucan]

Your entire assertion seems to boil down to "government bad" with no further analysis or theory. "Add government to fix government" is effectively how representative democracy works, at least in theory. The amendments we are currently discussing in fact fit the description of "adding government to fix government" quite literally; they were ratified additions to the Constitution.

And like, yeah spotting problems is easier than giving right solutions, but what you're discussing here feels a lot more like just giving up on it entirely, which seems a horrific practice when the entity in question literally runs your society?

[normalaccess]

The amendments to the U.S. Constitution generally limited the power of the government as time went on.

Less government is *almost* always better. I'm no anarchist but I do believe that we need to massively trim the fat from time to time. And I also believe that America has the best foundation to build upon. I have yet to see better founding documents.

[GuinansEyebrows]

if god gave us those rights, they wouldn't need to be in a document. they would be intrinsic to our nature.

i know this is cynical and people on Hacker News Dot Com hate when i say this, but it will never change the fact that the constitution was authored and approved by men who owned human beings (including at least one man who took the teeth from human beings he owned to put into his own mouth). i don't care how high-minded the ideals may seem. the foundation is as rotten as Washington's teeth.

[normalaccess]

Because that is not the nature of man. Even angels fall when they forget who they are.

So good men are needed to push back the overwhelming desire to rule as gods over our fellow men.

[GuinansEyebrows]

it's so perfectly, sickeningly ironic that the historical figures we refer to as "good men" who "push back the overwhelming desire to rule as gods over our fellow men" literally claimed the right to own other human beings.

[ToucanLoucan]

The big plan of the Revolution was not, in fact, any sort of revolution. It was merely consolidating power the landowning class already had, and not sending a cut back to Britain.

And like, that's fine. America, for better or worse, exists, and we'll never know if history would've been better or worse without us. But please let's let go of this fantastical origin story. We're a country, same as any other, just a bit younger, and already with frankly just as many atrocities under our belt as other countries. We are not unique, apart from we treat our citizenry uniquely poorly relative to other developed nations. If you want me to be proud of this country, I'm amenable to that, but it has to earn that.