[Ygg2]

> And we will take backwards compatibility seriously when we hit 1.0, and only "break" on major versions.

I'm talking about post 1.0 language choices:

- Choose backwards compatibility. Packages frozen in time, you get "Packages go to std to die." - Choose to break backwards compatibility. The ecosystem is split, some choose to go Odin 2 some are Odin 3.

[gingerBill]

I already know all that, that's why we are being very conservative and slow when it comes to figuring out what is meant to be in 1.0.

[Ygg2]

I don't think it will matter. There will be things people want that Odin won't have in the vendor package list.

Then those people will have to manage dependencies, which is a hell on its own. Which will cause problems. Because people are super lazy so they will automate it. In the end only thing no package manager gets you is multiple package managers to juggle.

Many languages started without package managers and eventually got them - Java, JavaScript, Python, C, C++

[gingerBill]

Again, I am not against third party packages, and manual management of dependencies just slows down your progression to hell. There is no "solution" to this problem, only trade-offs.

I know people are lazy and will automate hell. That's the entire point of the article: not everything that can be automated ought to be automated.

And the argument about multiple package managers to juggle is only the case IFF there are multiple competing ones, which with Odin, I honestly doubt it would happen if we enforced what a package is in the language. I just don't want to officially endorse one ever because I do view them to be evil.

And I don't care many languages started without them, I am not going to give in.

[Ygg2]

> I honestly doubt it would happen if we enforced what a package is in the language. I just don't want to officially endorse one ever because I do view them to be evil.

I don't see how changing package definition is going to help. JS had no concept of package and it was bolted on with NPM. If Odin becomes big enough, the community will override the will of the author.

Plus I don't see huge benefits to not having a package manager other than saving disk space.

Security isn't that much meaningfully better than NPM.

Trust problem exists regardless of package manager.

And people aren't far to trusting, but far too lazy. And importing packages gets job done quickly.

[dismalaf]

> If Odin becomes big enough, the community will override the will of the author.

Dunno, hanging out in the Odin discord, it definitely attracts a crowd that thinks similarly to Bill. All the "automate everything" crowd have definitely gone to Zig, where you can create automated monstrosities with the comptime stuff and build.zig files. And the crowd that likes NPM gravitates to Rust. So Odin is just fine IMO. People on the discord share libraries that actually do things, versus an entire dependency to write a few basic procedures.

And speaking of JavaScript, nowadays ES6 does have an idea of what packages/modules/libraries are and it's so much better. All my JS dependencies for my Rails projects are just .esm.js files. I choose modules carefully, don't pull in obfuscated files, read the source, so I have 2 JS dependencies in one project and a single one in another, I write the rest myself in vanilla JS and life is great.

[Ygg2]

> Dunno, hanging out in the Odin discord, it definitely attracts a crowd that thinks similarly to Bill.

Sure, hence the big enough part. If you get big enough, you'll get people who are using it as a day job language, not their special darling. Having used JS and Java without package managers in a professional setting, they sucked to use.

You import a package, run the main program, see compiler/browser errors then search local repo or th Net for the missing library. Essentially you're the package manager. Which does little for bloat. You can still have a folder and import stuff en masse.