[bigiain]

I can't tell if I'm being paranoid or just realistic, when I suspect that FBI/Apple fights over decrypting/unlocking iPhones or iMessage are just part of Apple's security theater.

If I were Evil-Tim-Cook, I'd have a deal with the FBI (and other agencies) where I'd hand over some user's data, in return for them keeping that secret and occasionally very publicly taking Apple to court demanding they expose a specific user and intentionally losing - to bolster Apple's privacy reputation.

[throw0101a]

> If I were Evil-Tim-Cook, I'd have a deal with the FBI (and other agencies) where I'd hand over some user's data, in return for them keeping that secret and occasionally very publicly taking Apple to court demanding they expose a specific user and intentionally losing - to bolster Apple's privacy reputation.

The FBI wants its investigations to go to court and lead to convictions. Any evidence gained in this way would be exposed as coming form Apple; notwithstanding parallel construction:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

As for other agencies, I'm sure many have exploits to attack these devices and get spyware on them, and so may not need Apple's assistance.

[14]

I imagine if you have the information parallel construction becomes trivial.

[worthless-trash]

The killers app for ai.

[somenameforme]

It's possible for it to be a facade, but also real.

Apple is a part of PRISM so there's approximately a 100% chance that anything you send to Apple via message, cloud, or whatever else, gets sent onto the NSA and consequently any agency that wants it. But the entire mass data collection they are doing is probably unconstitutional and thus illegal. But anytime it gets challenged in courts it gets thrown out on a lack of standing - nobody can prove it was used against them, so they don't have the legal standing to sue.

And the reason this is, is because its usage is never acknowledged in court. Instead there is parallel construction. [1] For instance imagine the NSA finds out somebody is e.g. muling some drugs. They tip off the police and then the police find the car in question and create some reason to pull it over - perhaps it was 'driving recklessly.' They coincidentally find the cache of drugs after doing a search of the car because the driver was 'behaving erratically', and then this 'coincidence' is how the evidence is introduced into court.

----

So getting back to Apple they probably want to have their cake and eat it too. By giving the NSA et al all they want behind the scenes they maintain those positive relations (and compensatory $$$ from the government), but then by genuinely fighting its normalization (which would allow it to be directly introduced) in court, they implicitly lie to their users that they're keeping their data protected. So it's this sort of strange thing where it's a facade, but simultaneously also real.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

[JumpCrisscross]

> the entire mass data collection they are doing is probably unconstitutional and thus illegal. But anytime it gets challenged in courts it gets thrown out on a lack of standing

It's kind of wild that this is the part of the deep state MAGA just forgot about.

[MangoToupe]

Maybe. I think they'd have a hard time keeping that under wraps—governments aren't typically very careful (and the FBI is about as careful as a bull in a china shop) about not showing their hand when it comes to charging people. If you're strict about keeping certain info on certain channels, smart observers would notice if someone were snooping.

For instance, if someone shared something incriminating in a group chat and got arrested, and that info was only shared in the group chat, they'd have to silence everyone in that group chat to ensure that the channel still seemed secure. I don't think at least our government is that competent or careful.

But also, people wayyyy overhype how much apple tries to come off as privacy-forward. They sell ads and don't even allow you to deny apps access to the internet, and for the most part their phone security seems more focused on denying you control over your own phone rather than denying a third party access to it. I think they just don't want the hassle of complying with warrants. Stuff like pegasus would only be so easy to sell if you couldn't lean on the company to gain access, and I think it'd be difficult for hundreds of countries to conspire to obscure legal pressure. Finally Apple generally has little to gain from reading your data, unlike other tech giants with perverse incentives.

Of course this is all speculation, but I do trust imessages much more than I trust anything coming out of meta, and most of what comes out of google.

[sokoloff]

> someone shared something incriminating in a group chat and got arrested, and that info was only shared in the group chat

“Only” is doing an incredible amount of work there.

Unless you concoct something incriminating solely for the purpose of testing this, the something incriminating being discussed in group chat previously happened in the real world. Ripples of information were created there and can be found (parallel construction).

[MangoToupe]

Right, but parallel construction only works if opsec fails. Good luck with repeating that feat forever. You clearly have far more faith in the FBI than I do. Now repeat this feat for every dumbass in intelligence in every country.

[sokoloff]

My position doesn’t require a lot of faith in the FBI.

If they fail in parallel construction, they always have the option to continue. For the vast majority of cases where opsec isn't 100% foolproof, we hear about them. For the few cases where it was foolproof, we just don't hear about them.

[MangoToupe]

It requires faith that they prioritize keeping such abilities a secret rather than prosecuting, and again, I do not share this faith.

[Terr_]

> For instance, if someone shared something incriminating in a group chat and got arrested, and that info was only shared in the group chat, they'd have to silence everyone in that group chat to ensure that the channel still seemed secure.

Corrupt investigators can use parallel construction to pretend that the key breakthrough in the case was actually something legal.

[MangoToupe]

See the sibling comment. The odds of nobody noticing still don't make any sense.

[const_cast]

PRISM went undetected for a long, long time and it's essentially a wiretapping of the entire internet.

Clearly, you are underestimating the intelligence and capabilities of the US government. They have a lot of money. Like... A lot of money.

[MangoToupe]

What do you think I based this analysis on?

[nkrisc]

Wouldn’t it be easier to just not do that and have the same thing happen, but for real?