[coldblues]

Apps/platforms don't work for learning Japanese. You just need to memorize the hell out of the vocabulary, spend some time learning the grammar, and most importantly IMMERSE. Watch, read and listen to content in Japanese.

https://learnjapanese.moe

https://alljapanesealltheti.me/ (this used to be THE guide for learning)

[marsavar]

People are reacting quite strongly to this answer, but it is unfortunately correct. OP has essentially created an application for memorising vocabulary, which is... fine, and it's an achievement to be celebrated.

But no amount of flashcards will make you a competent language speaker. There is no substitute for immersion.

What made it really click for me for me was reading. Lots and lots of it. My suggestion is to start with short, easy stuff (stories for kids) and then move on to progressively harder material (short newspaper articles, essays).

I passed JLPT N1 back in 2013, and preparing for the test was just an exercise in memorising vocabulary and grammar patterns. What really made the language click for me was reading novels in Japanese. That alone helped me more than any amount of Anki-style JLPT prep material ever did.

Vocabulary is important, but it's much, much easier to absorb and retain if you learn it in context.

[tillcarlos]

Do you know of a tool that can generate texts to read based on exactly your level?

I think that was Krashen’s input hypothesis. If I read a text in Vietnamese with more than one unknown word, it’s too much. Exactly one would do it.

Haven’t seen a tool doing that.

[wren6991]

It's a numbers game. Sentence complexity within a given novel follows a distribution, and if you keep reading then you'll keep getting some input that is at exactly the right level for you to grow. It's normal to stumble on the exposition at the start of a chapter and then breeze through the dialogue.

I did find it helpful early on to go through web novels with a low 95% coverage vocabulary count, like the Narou stories indexed here: http://wiki.wareya.moe/Narou

Natively is a great resource too. It does Elo-style ranking of novel difficulty: https://learnnatively.com/browse/jpn/?language=jpn&lvl=

I highly recommend real stories over generated text and synthetic exercises, because the key to success is staying engaged long term. Stories are just more fun. Also get yourself a reading setup that minimises the pain of dictionary lookups, because there are going to be a lot of them. ttsu reader + yomitan is excellent.

[tkgally]

That matches my experience, too. I passed JLPT N1—then called 1-kyū—back in 1985 (!).

I did spend a lot of time memorizing vocabulary with flashcards, but I spent even more time on extensive reading—novels, newspapers, magazines, anything I was interested in, even if at first I understood little. The repeated exposure to vocabulary in real-world contexts really made a difference.

[gyomu]

The “culture” around learning Japanese is so different from other languages. There’s a large amount of software engineers studying the language, so there’s tons of apps/websites that center around it (for better or worse).

The communities are also… particular. People tend to espouse certain deep beliefs or attitudes that you just don’t see for other languages (and I don’t think complexity is the reason; you don’t see that for Chinese or Russian or Finnish, to name some other notoriously hard languages).

[refactor_master]

Funny thing is, these communities aren’t readily visible in real life. At the Japanese language school I attend people are mostly regular people with regular lives and regular limitations. Online, you’d believe that everybody did Wanikani on Adderall for several hours a day.

[gyomu]

Oh yeah, my experience IRL in Japan is that 80% of Japanese learners are Chinese (and 15% are from other Asian countries, eg Thailand/Vietnam/Korea/India/Pakistan).

[rootsudo]

My experience with Japanese language school was different. Turns out everyone was there because of anime or YouTube bloggers. Wish I’d know. Didn’t have to study to be “good in class” and it felt like a visa mill. So much for in Japan instruction.

[weird-eye-issue]

I think this observation also applies to almost everything else too

[Hamuko]

There's no real reason to learn Finnish other than curiosity, so I'm not surprised there's no community around learning it. You can move to Finland without knowing the language at all, since everyone else around you will happily speak English with you. Hell, you can even get Finnish citizenship as long as you learn Swedish instead. And when a language is spoken by around five million people, there's no large amount of creative works only unlocked by learning the language either.

(I'm a native Finnish speaker)

[gyomu]

There absolutely are communities around learning Finnish! /r/LearnFinnish has 40k members and get daily posts, plenty of FB groups etc too.

[gregjw]

Long term Japanese learner here:

They might not be effective in the long run but saying 'they don't work' is an oversimplification, it depends what benchmark you're setting.

They're definitely worth using for beginning, but yeah, returns slope off.

[ntlk]

Renshuu provides fantastic SRS based tools for memorizing the hell out of vocabulary, has a huge bank of grammar lessons and a variety of grammar quiz styles to bed in the knowledge through practical applications. There are multiple quiz styles that are more or less challenging, including typing out answers instead of multiple choice questions.

Using just Renshuu and Wanikani I learned enough Japanese to be able to engage with Japanese content and for it to be actually comprehensible.

In the past I tried learning through immersion only, made no progress, found it demotivating and gave up. You need a baseline of vocab and grammar, and I don’t think it matters much where exactly it’s coming from (apps, lessons, textbooks).

[zaik]

Anki definitely works for memorizing the hell out of vocabulary and I also don't regret completing WaniKani, although I would probably choose an Anki only approach if I had to start over. At some intermediate level I stopped looking at the mnemonics completely and just did as many reviews as possible until it stuck.

[awirth]

I also got a lot of value out of wanikani even without completing it.

I tried and failed several times to get started with Anki before having success with Wanikani. The key diffentiator for me was the learning step. Anki is great for remembering things you were taught or learned outside of it, but using Anki to learn new things is very much a learned skill that Wanikani holds your hand through.

I have N2 and am working on N1 now, and feel I still have a very long way to go before getting to CEFR C1. Now I only use Anki with the yomitan and takoboto integrations to quickly add any words I look up, which seems to be working well.

[coldblues]

I agree with you, but Anki is a generalized flashcard SRS memorization tool, not specifically made for learning Japanese, so it's not within my area of critique; I'm thinking of apps similar to Duolingo. It works extremely well because it helps you memorize very efficiently. One of the few applications that will indeed boost your learning by a lot. Anything requiring manual input rather than a simple Again or Good button choice tends to be worse. Any Anki deck requiring manual input as an answer should not be used.

[yorwba]

I assume you're thinking about translation flashcards when you say that manual input should not be used, but I get a lot of value out of dictation flashcards in Anki: the front plays a recording of a sentence, I type in what I heard, and I mark myself correct if I wrote the right sentence and understood its meaning.

With translation, the problem is that there's often many correct answers, which makes it difficult to distinguish wrong answers from unexpected correct answers. But sentence dictation usually doesn't have this problem (barring puns with homophones.)

[OneMorePerson]

My argument in support of the general immersion concept but against AJATT is that most people can't actually effectively use that method without hitting a wall. The amount differs for everyone but after some ratio (say around 50% of your waking hours) your brain will stop working as well and you need space to process what you learned. Finishing a long study session (say listening to a few YouTube videos then having a session on iTalki with a tutor, etc.) and having my phone in Japanese just sounds like hell to me.

[wodenokoto]

Ajatt is absolutely ridiculous and I never understood how it rose to prominence online.

His result to efforts ratio listed back in the days was terrible and reading through is blog - back when it was a blog - was impossible. Everything read like an informercial and never got to the point.

Last time I checked it was a book club. Didn’t bother to check this time.

[jaredklewis]

What's ridiculous about it? Long before AJATT was a site, I think most people would've told you that immersion is a good way to learn a second language.

You mention "result to efforts ratio," but I'm not sure I understand what this could me. In language learning, "results" and "efforts" are more or less the same thing. If you read a lot of books, you'll be good at reading books. It's not like there's some reading that is "effort" reading and other reading that is "results" reading; it's all just reading. For most people, the goal of learning Japanese is to be able to use Japanese in the real world. In which case I don’t see why any amount of time spent using Japanese should count as effort (but not results), since that’s the whole point.

I never paid any money to AJATT nor agree with everything on the site, but did find it inspirational in various ways early on in my studies. I'm fluent in written and spoken Japanese, and I do think living in Japan as well as immersing myself in Japanese media was a big part of that. I studied French in high school and college using traditional courses and I was never a great French speaker, I think in large part because I didn't do much with French outside the classroom.

[wodenokoto]

First time I went to ajatt it basically said “with only 18 hours of study a day you too can be fluent in Japanese in two years”

[jaredklewis]

From what I remember, the site mostly recommended immersion supplemented by studying methods like spaced repetition, so if that’s like 16 hours of immersion and a couple hours of “study” I think that probably seems about right? Though maybe sleep a bit more.

When I lived in Tokyo I met lots of immigrants that came over with little or no knowledge of Japanese and if they were working in ordinary jobs like in a restaurant or convenience store, they would usually be conversational in a couple months and verbally fluent in a half year. The ones that studied were usually ready to take the N1 after a few years.

People that struggled were usually in jobs like English teaching or programming where most of their day was not in Japanese.

And like I said above, if you want to learn Japanese, the whole point is to use it, so using Japanese for most of the day doesn’t necessarily seem like a burden.

Obviously it’s not for everyone, but that’s true of everything.

Do you think there is another, faster way to fluency?

[agnishom]

I don't disagree with this, but you need a "critical mass" of textbook knowledge to get started

[SenHeng]

I disagree with your disagreement.

I started off by memorising the hiragana table, then went hardcore. Got a simple manga (Hikaru no go) and a Japanese to English dictionary and just winged it.

Initially it took me a month to read an entire volume. It gets easier.

That was 20 years ago without any of the fancy tools people have today.

[agnishom]

I salute you for your persistence.I suspect that very few people have a similar level of persistence to read a whole book when you do not understand 9 out of 10 words

[linehedonist]

And maybe talk to people in Japanese? And do some writing? Not just passive consumption.

[nodja]

This is actually NOT recommended for a beginner.

Writing and speaking are effective at establishing long term memories, it's why we do it for other things, but a language learning beginner has no idea if what they're writing makes sense or if there's any subtle mistakes in how they're pronouncing words or how they're putting them together, etc.

Language learning experts don't recommend you start speaking/writing unless you have a coach or have reached an intermediate level so that you can discern when something sounds native or not. That way you can self evaluate with recordings, etc.

It is an effective tool for learning, but for self-learning you're gonna be shooting yourself in the foot long term. You should only do it if you have, say, a partner that speaks the language and doesn't mind correcting you all the time.

For Japanese I recommend that you do learn how to write kana/kanji from the start, and even some vocab if you want. But stop there. Don't write sentences, don't try to talk to japanese people on those apps/discord etc. and wait until you're at an intermediate level to do it, otherwise you'll form some very bad habits that are very hard to undo.

[zakokor]

I think the concern about forming bad habits is real, but avoiding any writing until you’re “ready” can delay fluency.

Something that worked for me was limiting it: just 65 words a day in the target language. It forces you to think, but the risk of fossilizing mistakes is low because it’s short.

I even built a little site for this (65words.com) and it’s been fun seeing others use it. Curious if Japanese learners here think this approach makes sense.

[linehedonist]

Every language course I’ve taken has involved has some active production of language. Day 1 of my Japanese class in HS was introducing ourselves to one another. Language exams also require proof of correct and accurate production of language.

Do you have any citations for the idea that it’s better not to practice actually using the language while trying to learn it?

[carom]

This is the primary researcher behind the input hypothesis. [1]

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Krashen

[Karrot_Kream]

The Input Hypothesis is controversial and has little evidence backing it up. Krashen is a bit like a fitness bro of the language learning world.

[ntlk]

Making mistakes and seeing exactly how you’re being misunderstood is the best thing for improving your speaking skills. There’s absolutely no reason to wait before speaking, as wanting to be understood provides incredible motivation to correct issues as you discover them.

[charcircuit]

>has no idea if what they're writing makes sense or if there's any subtle mistakes

These days AI can tell you if it makes sense and the subtle mistakes you are making. I think this view point is outdated now that everyone has a personal language tutor in their pocket.

[nodja]

I've used several LLMs to do translations and they're very hit/miss, specially in very high context languages like japanese. I'm not sure recommending their usage for a beginner is good advice, it's better than nothing for sure, but still not a replacement for a human coach.

[Karrot_Kream]

I'm sorry but this is one of the most incorrect things I have ever read. If I could downvote it twice I would.

It's true that Japanese tend to be more strict about accurate production of phonology than many other language speakers but speaking and writing are huge enablers of becoming better. It's really not that hard to unlearn bad pronunciation especially in an immersive context. Also most Japanese have a tendency to gently correct a speaker if you use the wrong phrase, particle, or construction.

Obviously if you've been self-learning your first few conversations with real people are going to be rough and so maybe avoid dense topics like Japanese attitudes on the JSDF. But if you end up in a light conversation circle where you talk about your favorite foods you'll be fine.

[nodja]

Fixing a bad habit is very hard, and I clearly stated it that outputting is very helpful, but you need to be constantly corrected or you'll develop bad habits that are very hard to fix. I'm not a native english speaker and I'm in a community of immigrants in the US and most of them have developed very bad habits that are fixable, but would require major effort and time on their part. The main ones being that they do word-level translation from their mother language to english and keep the same sentence structure, or borrowed words that are common in both languages are pronounced in a half-half sense, i.e. they change how the words are pronounced to make them sound more english, but the vowels still sound spanish/portuguese/etc.

Also note that these are not barriers to being understood, but they are barriers to be fluent in the language. These people have lived in the US for 10+ years and communicate in english just fine, humans need very little language to communicate most things. But if they need to be taken seriously in jobs that require constant communication, becoming fluent should be a long term goal, and outputting early is bad. It's best to wait for 1-2 months until you get a grasp of sound and flow of the language.

[Karrot_Kream]

You do realize the Input Hypothesis is a bit of a crack hypothesis right? You can't claim that "language learning experts don't recommend" something when in fact that theory is controversial and has little evidence backing it up.

[grigri907]

What DO you recommend then between learning kana/kanji and full fluency?

[trenchpilgrim]

Writing is not that necessary of a skill in Japanese- even many native Japanese speakers no longer remember how to write many characters.

There's even a self-deprecating slang term: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%97...

[jaredklewis]

"Writing" here probably doesn't refer to writing things by hand with a pen, but rather the act of composing emails, text messages, essays and so on.

Even just forgetting about Kanji for a moment, just like in other languages, written Japanese is not identical to spoken Japanese and requires practice if you want to be able to compose natural sounding texts, emails, letters, and so on.

[raincole]

If only there is a native speaker who is willing to correct your mistakes.

Output (writing and speaking) is a big beginner trap for language learners. If you can't afford a private tutor or moving to another country, my suggestion is just to skip it until you're able to understand daily conversation in the target language.

People are going to tell you making mistakes makes you improve. Which is true, if and only if you know what mistakes you made.

[RayVR]

You’re just wrong. There are multiple pieces to learning languages. I had immense success with wanikani, improving my listening and reading.

Speaking can only be improved by speaking. No amount of language intake will improve output.

[jvuygbbkuurx]

I think you are oversimplifying it. Thinking is output.

[vincelt]

Agreed. For immersing at home, reading mangas/webtoons with an OCR translated layer and watching Japanese vlogs with dual subtitles has been effective for me.

[AznHisoka]

Why did this used to be the guide? Did it go down in quality? Outdated?

I remember reading everything from this guide almost 15 years ago, and remembered it really did help

[adastra22]

Apps are really good at the first two though.

[thrance]

I'd say that's how any language is best learned. What makes japanese special in that regard?

[amelius]

> and most importantly IMMERSE

And if that is not possible/desired, perhaps talking to an AI can help?

[stevage]

>You just need to memorize the hell out of the vocabulary,

That's what this tool helps you do.

[aizk]

AJATT's impact is rather remarkable

[Affric]

Isn’t this the same as any language?