[sroerick]

OK, this seems like an absolutely valid use case. Big enterprise microservice architecture, I get it. If you have islands of dev teams, and a dedicated CI/CD dev ops team, then this makes more sense.

But this puts you in a league with some pretty advanced deployment tools, like high level K8, Ansible, cloud orchestration work, and nobody thinks those tools are really that appropriate for the majority of devteams.

People are out here using docker for like... make install.

[AlphaSite]

Having a reproducible dev environment is great when everyone’s laptop is different and may be running different OSes, libraries, runtimes, etc.

Also docker has the network effect. If there was a good light weight tool that was better enough people would absolutely use it.

But it doesn’t exist.

In an ideal world it wouldn’t exist, but we don’t live there.

[a012]

> Having a reproducible dev environment is great when everyone’s laptop is different and may be running different OSes, libraries, runtimes, etc.

Docker and other containerization solved the “it works on my machine” issue

[em-bee]

almost. there is still an issue with selinux. i just had that case. because the client develops with selinux turned off, the docker containers don't run on my machine if i have selinux turned on.

[znpy]

you miss an intermediate environment (staging, pre-prod, canary, whatever you want to call it) with selinux turned on.

[em-bee]

i don't. the customer does. and they don't seem to care. turning selinux off works for them and they are not paying me to fix that or work around it.

[adastra22]

Docker is that lightweight tool, isn’t it? It doesn’t seem that complex to me. Unfamiliar to those who haven’t used it, but not intrinsic complexity.

[rglullis]

Imagine you have a team of devs, some using macOS, some using Debian, some using NixOS, some on Windows + WSL. Go ahead and try to make sure that everyone's development environment by simply running "git pull" and "make dev"

[Fanmade]

Ha, I've written a lot of these Makefiles and the "make dev" command even became a personal standard that I added to each project. I don't know if I read about that, or if it just developed into that because it just makes sense. In the last few years, these commands very often started a docker container, though. I do tend to work on Windows with WSL and I most of my colleagues use macOS or Linux, so that's definitely one of the reasons why docker is just easier there.

[em-bee]

15 years ago i has a customer who ran a dozen different services on one machine, php, python, and others. a single dev team. upgrading was a nightmare. you upgraded one service, it broke another. we hadn't yet heard about docker, and used proxmox. but the principle is the same. this is definitely not just big enterprise.

[johnisgood]

That is wild. I have been maintaining servers with many services and upgrading never broke anything, funnily enough: on Arch Linux. All the systems where an upgrade broke something were Ubuntu-based ones. So perhaps the issue was not so much about the services themselves, but the underlying Linux distribution and its presumably shitty package manager? I do not know the specifics so I cannot say, but in my case it was always the issue. Since then I do not touch any distribution that is not pacman-based, in fact, I use Arch Linux exclusively, with OpenBSD here and there.

[em-bee]

i used "broken" generously. it basically means that for example for multiple php based services, we had to upgrade them all at once, which lead to a large downtime until everything was up and running again. services in containers meant that we could deal with them one at a time and dramatically reduce the downtime and complexity of the upgrade process.

[curt15]

Would there still have been a problem if you were able to install multiple php versions side-by-side? HPC systems also have to manage multiple combinations of toolchains and environments and they typically use Modules[1] for that.

[1] https://hpc-wiki.info/hpc/Modules

[em-bee]

probably not, but it wasn't just php, and also one of the goals was the ability to scale up. and so having each service in its own container meant that we could move them to different machines and add more machines as needed.

[johnisgood]

Oh, I see what you mean now, okay, that makes sense.

I would use containers too, in such cases.