[delusional]

Talking about "time to evolve something" seems patently absurd and unscientific to me. All of nature evolved simultaneously. Nature didn't first make the human body and then go "that's perfect for filling the dishwasher, now to make it talk amongst itself" and then evolve intelligence. It all evolved at the same time, in conjunction.

You cannot separate the mind and the body. They are the same physiological and material entity. Trying anyway is of course classic western canon.

[coldtea]

>Nature didn't first make the human body and then go "that's perfect for filling the dishwasher, now to make it talk amongst itself" and then evolve intelligence. It all evolved at the same time, in conjunction.

Nature didn't make decisions about anything.

But it also absolutely didn't "all evolved at the same time, in conjunction" (if by that you mean all features, regarding body and intelligence, at the same rate).

>You cannot separate the mind and the body. They are the same physiological and material entity

The substrate is. Doesn't mean the nature of abstract thinking is the same as the nature of the body, in the same way the software as algorithm is not the same as hardware, even if it can only run on hardware.

But to the point: this is not about separating the "mind and the body". It's about how you can have humanoid form and all the typical human body functions for millions of years before you get human level intelligence, after many later evolution.

>Trying anyway is of course classic western canon.

It's also classic eastern canon, and several others besides.

[delusional]

> The substrate is. Doesn't mean the nature of abstract thinking is the same as the nature of the body, in the same way the software as algorithm is not the same as hardware, even if it can only run on hardware.

In this you are positing the existance of a _soul_ that exists separately from the body, and is portable amongst bodies. Analogues to how an algorithm (disembodied software) exists outside of the hardware and is portable amongst it (by embodying it as software).

I don't not agree with that at all, but it's impossible to know of you're right, but I can at least understand why you have a hard time with my argument and the east-west difference if tradition of the existance of a soul is that "obvious" to you.

[coldtea]

I think whether it's "portable amongst bodies" is orthogonal. A specific consciousness of person X can very well only exist within the specific body of person X, and my argument still remains the same (not saying it's right, just that it's not premised on the constraint that there's a soul and it's independent/portable being true).

The argument is that whether consciousness is independent of a specific body or not, it's still of a different nature.

The consciousness part uses the body (e.g. nerve system, neurons etc), but it's nature is the informational exchange and it's essense is not in the construction of the body as a physical machine (though that's its base), but in the stored "weights" encoding memories and world-knowledge.

Same how with a CPU a specific program it runs is not defined by the CPU but the memory contents (data and variables and logic code). It might as well run in an abstract CPU, or one made of water tubes or billiard balls.

Of course in our case, the consciousness runs on a body - and only a specific body - and can't exist without one (same way a program can't exist as a running program without a CPU). But it doesn't mean its of the same nature as the body - just that the body is its substrate.