[trescenzi]

This is interesting to think about. It’s basically just birds and primates. Birds have an ancient evolutionary tree as they are dinosaurs, which did actually walk on two legs. But the gap between dinos and primates walking on two feet, I think, is tens of millions of years. So yea pretty long time.

[noduerme]

This makes me think something else, though. Once we were able to reason about the physics behind the way things can move, we invented wheels. From there it's a few thousand years to steam engines and a couple hundred more years to jet planes and space travel.

We may have needed a billion years of evolution from a cell swimming around to a bipedal organism. But we are no longer speed limited by evolution. Is there any reason we couldn't teach a sufficiently intelligent disembodied mind the same physics and let it pick up where we left off?

I like the notion of the LLM's understanding being "shadows on the wall of Plato's cave metaphor," and language may be just that. But math and physics can describe the world much more precisely and, of you pair them with the linguistic descriptors, a wall shadow is not very different from what we perceive with out own senses and learn to navigate.

[breuleux]

Note that wheels, steam engines, jet planes, spaceships wouldn't survive on their own in nature. Compared to natural structures, they are very simple, very straightforward. And while biological organisms are adapted to survive or thrive in complicated, ever-changing ecosystems, our machines thrive in sanitized environments. Wheels thrive on flat surfaces like roads, jet planes thrive in empty air devoid of trees, and so on. We ensure these conditions are met, and so far, pretty much none of our technology would survive without us. All this to say, we're playing a completely different game from evolution. A much, much easier game. Apples and oranges.

As for limits, in my opinion, there are a few limits human intelligence has that evolution doesn't. For example, intent is a double-edged sword: it is extremely effective if the environment can be accurately modelled and predicted, but if it can't be, it's useless. Intelligence is limited by chaos and the real world is chaotic: every little variation will eventually snowball into large scale consequences. "Eventually" is the key word here, as it takes time, and different systems have different sensitivities, but the point is that every measure has a half-life of sorts. It doesn't matter if you know the fundamentals of how physics work, it's not like you can simulate physics, using physics, faster than physics. Every model must be approximate and therefore has a finite horizon in which its predictions are valid. The question is how long. The better we are at controlling the environment so that it stays in a specific regime, the more effective we can be, but I don't think it's likely we can do this indefinitely. Eventually, chaos overpowers everything and nothing can be done.

Evolution, of course, having no intent, just does whatever it does, including things no intelligence would ever do because it could never prove to its satisfaction that it would help realize its intent.

[noduerme]

Okay, but (1) we don't need to simulate physics faster than physics to make accurate-enough predictions to fly a plane, in our heads, or build a plane on paper, or to model flight in code. (2) If that's only because we've cleared out the trees and the Canada Geese and whatnot from our simplified model and "built the road" for the wheels, then necessity is also the mother of invention. "Hey, I want to fly but I keep crashing into trees" could lead an AI agent to keep crashing, or model flying chainsaws, or eventually something that would flatten the ground in the shape of a runway. In other words, why are we assuming that agents cannot shape the world (virtual, for now) to facilitate their simplified mechanical and physical models of "flight" or "rolling" in the same way that we do?

Also, isn't that what's actually scary about AI, in a nutshell? The fact that it may radically simplify our world to facilitate e.g. paper clip production?

[breuleux]

> we don't need to simulate physics faster than physics to make accurate-enough predictions to fly a plane

No, but that's only a small part of what you need to model. It won't help you negotiate a plane-saturated airspace, or avoid missiles being shot at you, for example, but even that is still a small part. Navigation models won't help you with supply chains and acquiring the necessary energy and materials for maintenance. Many things can -- and will -- go wrong there.

> In other words, why are we assuming that agents cannot shape the world

I'm not assuming anything, sorry if I'm giving the wrong impression. They could. But the "shapability" of the world is an environment constraint, it isn't fully under the agent's control. To take the paper clipper example, it's not operating with the same constraints we are. For one, unlike us (notwithstanding our best efforts to do just that), it needs to "simplify" humanity. But humanity is a fast, powerful, reactive, unpredictable monster. We are harder to cut than trees. Could it cull us with a supervirus, or by destroying all oxygen, something like that? Maybe. But it's a big maybe. Such brute force takes requires a lot of resources, the acquisition of which is something else it has to do, and it has to maintain supply chains without accidentally sabotaging them by destroying too much.

So: yes. It's possible that it could do that. But it's not easy, especially if it has to "simplify" humans. And when we simplify, we use our animal intelligence quite a bit to create just the right shapes. An entity that doesn't have that has a handicap.

[coldtea]

>Also, isn't that what's actually scary about AI, in a nutshell? The fact that it may radically simplify our world to facilitate e.g. paper clip production?

No, it's more about massive job losses and people left to float alone, mass increase in state control and surveillance, mass brain rot due to AI slop, and full deterioration of responsibility and services through automation and AI as a "responsibility shield".

[baq]

Something that isn’t obvious when we’re talking about the invention of the wheel: we aren’t actually talking about the round shape thing, we’re actually talking about the invention of the axle which allowed mounting a stationary cart on moving wheels.

[Earw0rm]

And the roadways (later, rails) on which it operates.

Meanwhile, entire civilizations in South America developed with little to no use of wheels, because the terrain was unsuited to roads.

[oblio]

It wasn't actually just terrain. It was actually availability of draft animals, climate conditions and actually most importantly... economics.

Wheeled vehicles aren't inherently better in a natural environment unless they're more efficient economically than the alternatives: pack animals, people carrying cargo, boats, etc.

South America didn't have good draft animals and lots of Africa didn't have the proper economic incentives: Sahara had bad surfaces where camels were absolutely better than carts and sub Saharan Africa had climate, terrain, tsetse flies and whatnot that made standard pack animals economically inefficient.

Humans are smart and lazy, they will do the easiest thing that let's them achieve their goals. This sometimes leads them to local maxima. That's why many "obvious" inventions took thousands of years to create (cotton gin, for example).

[card_zero]

Yes, only humans, birds, sifakas, pangolins, kangaroos, and giant ground sloths. Only those six groups of creatures, and various lizards including the Jesus lizard which is bipedal on water, just those seven groups and sometimes goats and bears.

[trescenzi]

I get what you mean, that’s why the basically is there. Most, kangaroos and some lemurs in your list being the exception, do not move around primarily as bipeds. The ability to walk on two legs occasionally is different than genuinely having two legs and two arms.

[coldtea]

And once every while, my cat.