[robocat]

I wish I had your arrogant confidence.

I'm a vaxer But one community I hang with is strongly antivax. Many of them have been very harmed even if they didn't take the vaccines.

When something is that important to you (even for woowoo reasons or social media misinformation) then it is a fertile situation for mental health impacts.

Antivaxxers are a vulnerable population too (they have self selected into a circle by their beliefs and communities).

Disclosure: I've seen some good people severely harmed by overbearing government actions in New Zealand. I believe New Zealand did a good job of protecting everyone here from COVID, but that the collateral costs to everyone were very high (and extremely variable chronic costs to some).

Edit: apology that I've bucketed all vaccines together. E.g. Measles vaccine is quite different from covid vaccines.

[_DeadFred_]

You can empathize with your friends’ personal beliefs, but when those beliefs put children at risk, society has to draw a line. Vaccination is basic health hygiene required for large groups of people to live, learn, and function closely together without constant outbreaks. The requirement is minimal: if you want access to public education, you agree to the few safeguards that make it possible for the masses to share space safely (you use the bathroom, you wash your hands, you shower, you get vaccines).

Imagine if I said 'my religion doesn't allow running water, I should be allowed to defecate anywhere, and also science says toilets increase the risk of hemorrhoids, and you can't make me give my kids hemorrhoids'. You can't allow that, not because you don't agree with it, but because the way we live in groups needs artificial sanitation. Just like we need artificial stimulation of immune systems.

[robocat]

I am not talking about empathy with friends (I'm not sure why you assumed that). I am certainly not saying "don't immunise". I suspect you're making assumptions about me, but to be clear I am strongly pro vaccination and pro-science.

Each vaccination has costs and benefits. The science is amazing at reducing the physical risks.

I am just asking you to understand that some people are seriously psychologically harmed by requiring vaccinations (for themselves or for their children). It may be irrational, unscientific or selfish but I have seen how real the harm is for some people. That harm is a complex grey area. It should rarely trump the needs of children or society.

Society has a variety of ways to balance that harm against the expected benefits.

The second half of your comment is just a strawman story. And introducing religion as a topic is usually a poor idea.

[_DeadFred_]

I apologize if you feel attacked/judged. Conversations shouldn't go like that. I believe people have the right to their opinions, and in a democracy we WILL go down different avenues than I would like and that is part of democracy. And I appreciate you raising views not your own but not represented in the conversation. But I am going to point out the outcomes. I'm going to point out that the 'body autonomy' people harassed my mother for wearing a mask while dying of cancer and didn't care about her autonomy to wear a mask out of chemo need.

The original anti-vax exemptions were given on religious grounds. All justifications after that have built on that initial allowance. It is very much not a straw man when it comes to vaccine allowances. It is the OG justification that opened the conversation.

After watching my santa cruz woo woo ex-wife's friends all literally talk themselves into believing in the damage of vaccines (while being fine taking MEGA/unhealthy doses of western science discovered vitamins), I consider vaccine hesitancy a form of Munchausen syndrome. One that should only be tolerated to a certain point, and this is well past that point.