[lazide]

Thermal and deformation properties of the metal have no impact on ballistics at all?

Density sure does though.

Which is why 99% of the stuff you’re mentioning doesn’t really work.

Copper is quite dense, but still not as dense as lead, which is why it kinda works. Steel is terrible (but not completely useless). Tungsten works awesome (as does silver and gold), but is cost prohibitive except for specialized applications.

[stirfish]

There's

Interior ballistics: what happens inside the gun

Exterior ballistics: what happens when the projectile is in the air

Terminal ballistics: what happens when the projectile pokes a hole in the paper.

We use jacketed ammo (lead bullet coated in copper) because, with gas-operated guns, that lead dust that gets ground off of the bullet can foul up the mechanisms. Some ranges only let you use jacketed ammo because of the lead dust.

I've had copper pellets get stuck in airguns because they didn't swage to the barrel properly.

Edit: and suppressors for air guns are often called "lead dust collectors" because the drag-stabilizing skirt on a pellet is definitely going to leave some of itself behind. A bullet in a firearm makes a lot more contact with the barrel, so there's a lot more lead to lose.

[lazide]

Yes. And that is relevant to the aluminum projectiles, etc. mentioned before?

None of what you are talking about is relevant in this context.

[stirfish]

Yes! They all behave differently inside the gun, so they all affect the ballistics. Specifically, the deformation properties affect the interior ballistics.

[lazide]

haha, no - not to any meaningful degree. Are you getting this from ChatGPT or something?

Jacketing is convenient for encapsulating lead, but you can run gas checked hard cast at generally the same velocities without any real issues. In that case the gas check is due to coppers higher melting/vaporization point. They are more expensive to make however, and finicky, which is why you don’t see it in production bullets.

The ‘copper’ pellet you mention was almost certainly not actually fully copper, but rather copper washed lead. But you can have lead harder than normal copper (heat treated hard cast is extremely hard and ductile), and copper softer than normal lead (annealed copper is extremely soft). Most copper people are used to working with is work hardened, but it’s trivial to make it ‘dead soft’.

That also has nothing to do with aluminum or other rounds you mentioned.

If anyone even uses them, which they don’t outside of very niche cases or experiments where it shows exactly what I am referring to.

density, however, is 99% of it. including for terminal, interior, and every other kind of ballistics. BC is king. And that is something that is impossible to fake, heat treat, work harden, etc. out of.

For example, initial engraving pressure can be changed or negated by minor changes in throat, regardless of anything else. Or a coating. Or any number of other things.

there is no replacement for dense mass.

[stirfish]

>Are you getting this from ChatGPT or something?

Woah hey, take that back. But I concede both that I kinda went off on what I am interested in, and you might know more about this than I do. And that I was half replying to you, and half explaining why lead is used (neither very well).

I don't actually remember what was at the center of the copper pellets, but I remember concluding that whatever it was, it was harder and lighter than lead and the copper wasn't enough to make it grab the rifling properly. I've also tried zinc tipped pellets with a plastic base. The main concern with air rifles internally is grabbing the rifling, which is what lead excels at. A secondary concern is the resulting lead dust eventually fouling up any mechanisms is uses for repeating. A third, I guess, would be the pellet deforming, which is a case against lead.

I assumed (incorrectly) that the same would apply to most firearms

[lazide]

Ah, Airguns. That makes sense. If you have any more of those pellets, it might be worth taking a pair of cutters to one and seeing what is inside. Maybe copper washed zinc, which would be funny?

Airguns have such a wide range of wildly different criteria, it’s hard to generalize. Ballistic performance (by any definition or subdivision) is pretty much never a primary concern however though?

At least compared to regulations/compliance, cost, entertainment value, safety (aka anti ballistic effectiveness haha), etc.

Airsoft being a prime example. But even the ‘diving cyclinder powered’ Airguns, which can be quite effective by some measures, are still ~ an order of magnitude less pressure than a 45ACP, which is about as low pressure as a firearm cartridge can get? (And one of the first smokeless cartridges still in wide use - well over 100 years old now)

Most airguns are going to struggle to be usefully accurate or powerful at 100 yards (or even make it at all that far), and that’s kind of the minimum range for any rifle. Most rifles with practice can reliably hit targets at 800 yards, and can be lethal out to 2000-3000 yards.

Most handgun users will struggle past 15 yards, but it is rarely the gun. With practice and a competent shooter, almost any handgun can reliably hit ‘gongs’ at 100 yards, and are quite lethal out to at least 800 yards.

[keepamovin]

Here is the ChatGPT take: https://chatgpt.com/share/68b90b68-074c-8008-9afd-3f3817afac...

Thank you all for teaching me more. Lazide, what’s your background in this?

[lazide]

I’ve been custom loading ammunition (and shooting them) for over 20 years in pretty much every known type of man portable small arm.

From modern military machine guns to muzzle loading black powder cannon.