[ddfisher]

Terrible. RIP. :(

What can we do to stop things like this from happening again? There's clearly no quick-fix overnight solution, but there should be some set of actions we can take to slowly reduce/eventually eliminate this kind of violence. Any ideas?

[redthrowaway]

Fight religious extremism in all its forms. Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy by some priest or imam prattling on about God. Their "culture", such as it is, is simply incompatible with ours, and ours must win.

This is why the isolationists and non-interventionists are so gravely mistaken, and why the homicidal infants have a leg up in this fight: the latter understand that this is a war of cultures, and that only one will survive. They've already infiltrated Europe and demanded their right to Sharia law, their right to blow up embassies because of cartoons or, as in this case, movies, their right to bomb subways.

If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values that have raised humanity out of the dark ages and so improved our lot in life, if we are to continue to progress as a species, then we must be willing to fight for what we believe. We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will require force.

We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy; they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it.

[mayanksinghal]

> ours must win

Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture. This saddens me, I so wish I had the power to downvote.

>We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will require force

So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology. Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars.

I just hope that you were being sarcastic about how extremists act, I will give you an upvote for that.

[redthrowaway]

>Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture.

Yes, they do. They believe that their fundamentalist beliefs must triumph over liberal democracy, and they're willing to blow people up in order to see that happen. We have no choice but to respond to this.

>This saddens me

Me, too. That doesn't change anything, though.

>So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology.

I'm using yet another instance of religious extremists committing murder because they didn't like what someone said to highlight the fact that we cannot continue to act as though our cultures are compatible.

>Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars.

Not at all. I abhor the first two, and simply recognize that when war comes to you, you had best be willing to fight or surrender.

[mayanksinghal]

> Me, too.

No sir, your stand saddens me.

> you had best be willing to fight or surrender.

Or tackle things like adults. I come from India, I know wars do not solve problems. War based on culture and religion, never still. Your reaction will only bring more devastation to those who are not involved in these actions. Most of us non-westerners do not care what you say about our God(s) unless and until you are saying it just so as to be disrespectful. And even then, a unbelievably vast majority of us will probably only choose to withdraw our economic/political/social support that we would have otherwise entrusted you with. Killing is NOT our thing. And please don't go point out some article in a magazine showing how backward we are in terms of social equality; because we know we do and we don't want your intervention on it. Our governments are acting on it and the newer generations are all for equality. We are also less religious, just so that you know. So the war that you are throwing on the rest of us, we don't want to be part of it. We don't deserve to be a part of it.

And I don't get it, how will a war solve anything. Is there going to a genocide where you kill all those who don't agree to you western culture and ideologies or just our leaders - cultural and political? May be you will start with embassies that represent our sovereign on your soil for you probably see them while going on work and they remind you of how incompatible we are to your culture.

[redthrowaway]

I'm sorry, but you seem to misunderstand my position. No doubt this is due to my failure to communicate it effectively.

I am not saying we are at war with Muslims, or Arabs, or Persians, etc. I am not saying we are at war with Islam. I'm saying we are at war with religious fundamentalism. It is fundamentalism, not any one group or another, that threatens Enlightenment values. It is fundamentalism that causes people to behave so barbarically, and it is fundamentalism that we, as a species, must defeat.

[iy56]

Why is fundamentalism bad, and why is it ok for you to be fundamentalist in your anti-fundamentalism?

[paulhauggis]

"how backward we are in terms of social equality; because we know we do and we don't want your intervention on it"

Good. Then don't ever ask us for our help in terms of money or aid.

"And I don't get it, how will a war solve anything."

Because at some point, this is the only thing that will stop extremists. You need to force their hand until they stop. It's your type of thinking that has allowed these barbaric actions to continue for 100s if not 1000s of years.

Look at what happened in WW2: The counties that tried appeasement got crushed.

"Is there going to a genocide where you kill all those who don't agree to you western culture"

An extremist that kills people for talking about their religion is much different than anyone that doesn't believe in "western culture and ideologies".

It is my belief that if a society truly wants to be free, they will fight for it. If not, they aren't ready. The US should really stop giving aid to any of these countries.

I'm just curious how many people need to die before people get sick of living this way.

[cup]

>Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy by some priest or imam prattling on about God.

A profoundly poor sentence.

You're ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe.

>We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy; they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it.

I never imagined I would see something like this written in HN. Yes, the even is sad. The death and circumstances around it are terrible, but to take such a narrow one minded view only fuels the fire. These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel because they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened'.

Tell me, do you really think your post sounds like something coming from a 'civilized' person?

[redthrowaway]

>A profoundly poor sentence. You're[sic] ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe.

If you'd like to make a point, I'd be happy to respond to it.

>These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel

Really? These people just bombed an embassy because a movie offended them. These people earlier bombed embassies because cartoons offended them. These people, earlier still, sentenced an author to death because they were offended by a segment in one of his novels, in which a paranoid schizophrenic hallucinates that he is the archangel Gibreel.

These people are barbaric, violent, and emotionally stunted. These people react to people saying things they don't like by blowing them up, and these people think it their right to force their beliefs on the world at the point of a sword or muzzle of an AK-47.

>they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened'

Our values are more enlightened, in case you hadn't noticed. Your attempts to draw false equivalences between a culture which enshrines freedom and equality in law, and one which attacks same at every turn, is both laughable and deplorable.

[cup]

My point is what are your values?

Democratic due process? Tell that to the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas in a free and fair election only to be shunned.

Freedom of speech? Tell that to the numerous people arrested and imprisoned around the world under sedition/hate speech because they talk about Jihad or defending their countries.

Freedom? America has the biggest imprisoned population in the world. Assuming you are American. Freedom is a cliche term thrown around with such little weight that it pains me to tears.

Who was it that shot down a civilian airliner but never apologised? Which countries invaded the middle east? Which countries colonised and looted most of what is now the third world. Which country kills journalists and bombs news broadcasting stations? Which countries bombed a environmental protest ship, killed crew and never apologised, yet in the same breath has the audacity to talk about a liberté, égalité and fraternité.

I mean your narrow, one sided, hypocritical and arrogant opinion is directly why some people get so angry. Consider the fact that all the things I mentioned before were performed by governments, not unruly mobs in anarchic post revolutionary states. Who is truly barbaric?

[redthrowaway]

>Tell that to the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas in a free and fair election only to be shunned.

I hate to pull out this one, but Hitler was democratically elected, as well. Just because a government was chosen by its people does not mean that it is legitimate. Hamas seeks the eradication of a state and its people; it is rightly shunned. Now, I'm by no means pro-Israel. The Palestinian people need to have their own contiguous, viable state, despite how dim that prospect looks at present.

>Assuming you are American

I am not, and you'll find no support for the current American legal system from me. I do, however, highly value the American Constitution and the values it represents. It saddens me that those values are not better defended at present.

What I take from your post is that you seem to think I am some neocon imperialist. I am not. I despise injustice wherever it occurs, and my sentiments are distinctly post-statist. That said, Western civilization faces an existential threat from an enemy who despises its very foundations, and it is our very pluralism that blinds us to this threat. Too often, too many commit the fallacy that damns cultural relativism: that we must be tolerant of the intolerant. To this, I say no! We cannot tolerate that which attacks the very ideals our society is based upon. If we truly believe the foundations of our society to be morally superior, then when must defend them. It falls to those who deny this claim to show how a society predicated on subjugation and inequity can be morally equivalent to one predicated upon liberty and equality.

I feel it necessary to further clarify that I do not defend the actions of any particular Western country wholesale, rather I defend the precepts upon which Western civilization is based. Were the religious fundamentalists (of any origin) content to keep to themselves, I would have no problem with that. The fact is, they aren't. For them, it is not enough that they follow their beliefs; others must follow them too. This brings them into direct conflict with us, and it's a conflict they started. If we wish to maintain or, better yet, improve our society, we must first defend it against those who would see it remade in their likeness.

[parasubvert]

> Just because a government was chosen by its people does not mean that it is legitimate.

Actually, it does.

One can't argue the Nazi's were illegitimate. They were legitimate (for a short time). One could argue they were evil and needed to be deposed by external force.

> This brings them into direct conflict with us, and it's a conflict they started.

They started it? That's cycle of violence rhetoric, and partly why you're getting pushback.

[belorn]

Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed?

I guess this follow the "anyone who isn't us are them" attitude. Them, the wrong people, and us, the right people. The right people who is white, christian, catholic, no wait Protestant, capitalist, West, Aryan and rich. The wrong people who is black, red, non-christian, Protestant, no wait catholic, communist, east, non-Aryan or poor.

This is not a war of cultures. Neither would such a war preserve Enlightenment values. Enlightenment require us to use reason rather than tradition or faith to handle the situation. It is unreasonable to act intolerant. It is unreasonable to react with violence where diplomacy and peaceful actions can resolve issues. It is unreasonable to react to culture with walls, bared doors, and hostile attitude.

[redthrowaway]

>Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed?

What part of my post suggests anything of the sort? I said we are in a war against religious fundamentalism whether we like it or not, and we had damned well better win. Your attempts to cast it as some racist diatribe are at best misguided, at worst malign.

[intended]

Desist. This will only generate a further flame war.

Restraint and control of your emotions, and control over your ability to incite the emotions of others is the more fitting action to pay tribute to his death.

He died precisely because someone privileged emotions over logic. Your actions and speech is in exactly the same vein.

On a logical level - these comments add little to the discussion.

They condone the asking of vague and undefined questions to subjects which are vastly nuanced, and complex.

They generate further simplistic answers from people creating knee jerk reactions to your comments.

[redthrowaway]

My point is simply that Western civilization, and the Enlightenment values that underpin it, faces an existential threat from religious fundamentalism. That further, our society is not compatible with this fundamentalism, and must be defended against it.

I fail to see how saying this is "privileging emotions over logic".

[Ygg2]

I'd disagree. I thing Western civilization and Enlightment values do face an existential threat from extremism. Your opinion of "us vs them" is just another example of it.

[mcantelon]

>My point is simply that Western civilization, and the Enlightenment values that underpin it, faces an existential threat from religious fundamentalism.

Closer to home is the threat to Enlightenment values comes from lobbyists buying off our politicians and slowly transforming us into the kind of third world shithole that fundamentalism thrives in. Maybe more of a high priority than evil Muslims on the other side of the world, eh? Less dramatic, though, so you can't feel all messianic about it and beat your chest from your armchair.

[flyinRyan]

I really thought you were more intelligent than this from some of your other posts. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your having a bad day.

[redthrowaway]

I actually had a great day today. My views on this matter are strong, but they are the evolved result of several years of reading and careful consideration. Certainly you would never have found me espousing such views during the Bush administration, but I've come to reevaluate my previous convictions.

We find ourselves in a clash of civilizations. On the one hand, we have the progeny of the Enlightenment. Despite our flaws, humanity has achieved unthought-of progress as a result of these ideals. On the other, we have fundamentalism characterized by our worst impulses: profound immaturity evidenced by the "you insulted me so now I'll hurt you" behaviour of these people, as well as unthinking supplication to unworthy authorities and adherence to their dictates.

It's worse than that, though. The people who called for and carried out this attack and others like it were not seeking to hurt those who insulted them. Rather, they perceived some offense and so struck out blindly, murdering innocents. This is the very height of immaturity. It is supremely childish, and is behaviour that would be distressing even in a toddler. This is what fundamentalism reduces us to: unthinking animals frothing at the mouth and indulging in our most base tendencies. It strips us of all semblance of civilization, and in so doing degrades the species as a whole.

These two paradigms, civilization and barbarity, are utterly incompatible. They cannot coexist. The unfeeling cruelty engaged in by these fundamentalists is anathema to the very foundations of our society and the human progress it engenders. Where the two cultures meet they will inevitably clash, inevitably with violence.

We must decide whether our values are worth fighting for. Education and economic liberation can only take us so far. Where the scions of hatred and ignorance come at us with arms, we must be prepared to respond in kind, or lose what our forebears fought for.

[flyinRyan]

Do you seriously not see the irony of claiming that fundamentalism reduces one to their most base of tendencies, while espousing exactly such behavior as a response?

We were all once barbaric (in many, many ways, still are). How did we get out of it? Education, not by some enlightened assholes blowing us up. Please take a step back from your emotion and think about what you're saying.

[parasubvert]

Keep in mind that there's a well-argued view that the worst excess of enlightenment thinking is totalitarianism, and that the American Revolution was in part a Counter-Enlightenment revolution.

Of course there is no one "Enlightenment" to point at - but the point is that one can take reason too far, to the point it has the same effect as religious extremism: "you are logically wrong so I'll hurt you".

Ultimately the point of many religious faith is a constant reminder we are all fallible and do not have access to absolute truth. Many fundamentalists forget this, preferring to focus on morality over faith.

[flyinRyan]

Good lord, things will never change because we will never learn. It's exactly this "fight X in all its forms" that causes the problem to begin with. Help people, educate people. If they don't want your help or your education bit them adieu and walk away to help someone else.

But what ever you do, don't start a fight and certainly don't start an idiotic idealogical fight ("X in all its forms!"). That's what got them here and it's what got us here.

[redthrowaway]

Sorry, but they've already started the fight. If only they would keep to themselves, I'd have no quarrel with them. The Amish are incredibly religious, but they keep to themselves. I would never say we have to get rid of the Amish Church.

Fundamentalist Islam, like Evangelical Christianity, is not like that. The first threatens our values with bombs, the latter with ballots. Both seek to unmake Western civilization, and remake it in their image. Both must be defeated. The only difference is that the Evangelicals are not yet blowing people up, and so our response to them need not be so firm. Make no mistake, though, our society simply isn't compatible with religious fundamentalism, and so it must be subdued and eradicated. In most places, we can do that with education, dialogue, and economic development. In others, it will require armed resistance.

[flyinRyan]

Good lord, you sound as frothing-at-the-mouth radical as any extremist I've ever heard. Subdue and eradicate those who behave or think different than us? Like the Jews for example?

[CamperBob2]

False equivalency. When Jews launch an aggressive campaign to kill those who merely disagree with them, you'll have a point.

[flyinRyan]

Aggressive campaign? They killed about 3k of our people. We've killed over 100k people in response. Which of those sounds more aggressive?

[makomk]

From their perspective, we started the fight. If only we'd kept to ourselves, they'd have no quarrel with us. There's been a huge amount of really violent and nasty and selfish Western intervention in Africa and the Middle East and indeed most of the world since before you were even born.

[nitrogen]

Instead of "fight[ing]," which seems to perpetuate the us-vs-them problem, why not focus on using enlightenment itself to preserve these enlightenment values? Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge.

What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves."

[redthrowaway]

>Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge.

Both are necessary. We must bring the fruits of the enlightenment, and the very real individual benefits thereof, to the people who would otherwise be ripe recruits for fundamentalism. To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us.

>What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves."

While the second sentence seems suspect, I really like the first one. There would be a sort of cosmic beauty in using the vagaries of human consciousness that lead us to magical thinking to cure ourselves of same. Noe that would be a worthy hack.

[nitrogen]

To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us.

I'm not yet convinced of this. Maybe there truly are some people beyond redemption (with current technology), but I question how large that set could be, and doubt it encompasses every single member of any group designated by various governments as a terrorist organization (like Wikipedia).

[nitrogen]

I'm past the editing time limit, so I'm responding to note that "Wikipedia" should be "Wikileaks". Firefox and my KDE color scheme interact badly, creating black-on-dark-gray input boxes. Custom user style sheets don't help.

[Evbn]

Must we also kill the guests and bride at a wedding that took place kinda sorta near a location where we think a terrorist is hanging out? Do you see the problem with this approach?

[Jach]

> If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values...

Which ones? If you want these people to become civilized, you have to reject at least one value that masquerades as one from the Enlightenment: self-rule and self-determination. These people must be subjected to the rule of law, it will not spontaneously emerge even if we set up the structure for it and create for them a government with a constitution modeled after our own. Bring on another round of colonialism! We would also have to step it up with the manner in which we deal out punishments. Apart from the 2003 invasion of Baghdad by the US (and that's really stretching it), we haven't fought with our "gloves off" for a long time. That has to end, too.

[redthrowaway]

That's an interesting and cogent point. I think it true that we cannot merely present our values, and expect that they will adopt them. There will, by necessity, be some force (hard or soft) applied. How we accomplish this while remaining true to our values is a challenge in need of discussion.

[danenania]

The US has no interest whatsoever in fighting religious extremism. It fights to secure resources and strategic interests that primarily benefit the wealthiest members of its society. When it furthers US 'interests', the most brutal, oppressive, and religiously intolerant regimes on the planet are lavishly supported.

[belorn]

Promote free exchange of culture.

When we eliminate the feeling of "us vs them", believer vs non-believer, west vs east, I believe most kind of nation wide violence disappear. The easiest way to do so is to allow music, video and communities to be shared.

I think we can be rather sure that few if any of the religious lunatics that participated in the attack was part of the EVE community. Had one been in it, its likely he would had thought "Wait I know who works in that building, he is good person. lets go somewhere else.".

[flyinRyan]

>What can we do to stop things like this from happening again?

The best way? Kill this stupid mentality of "what can we do to make sure this never happens again". It is exactly this mentality that lead to his death: 911 happened so we started a war against a concept and started invading people's countries, killing good people from both sides.

Norway is the example we should all follow: when something terrible happens, morn and punish those directly responsible but don't change anything about yourself and don't go off with lunacy like fighting ideals.

[antihero]

End neo-colonialism and imperialistic power grabs by the US? Not so much Egypt (every country is different) but in the Middle East, it's far more political anger than it is religious anger - the religion is just a vessel.

[bishnu]

Build good schools. Send people to them.

[ucee054]

Get the first world to stop meddling in the third world. Especially, stop overthrowing their governments.

The jihadi loon "freedom fighters" who are now running around in Libya and Syria were created in Afghanistan when James Bond, Rambo and Zbigniew Brzezinski decided that it was a really good idea to annoy the Russians by giving Stinger missiles to Osama Ben Laden. What could possibly go wrong?

Note: AlQaeda are Islamo-Reaganites, not Islamo-Fascists. Mussolini wasn't much involved.

ADDENDUM: Let's overthrough Ghaddafi and leave Libya in jihadi militia-ridden chaos, What could possibly go wrong?

[Evbn]

Nothing will go wrong. War in Asia and Africa is great for the American economy.