[kelseyfrog]

Look, we can spin out any nightmare scenario, but the reality today is worse: unpaid overtime is the norm, and people in tech are burning out and even dying from overwork. That's not a hypothetical. It's our current world.

Timesheets arent fun, but they're not the end of the world either. Other skilled professions (IT support, paralegals, lab techs) use simple weekly logs or start/stop tracking without surveillance. They get paid for their overtime. We don't.

If the choice is between tedious record keeping or doing more work for the same pay, the latter is far more exploitative and soul crushing. We can fix the mechanics without ignoring the principle: work more, get paid more.

Honest question: is filling out a timesheet really worse, to you, than working extra hours for free?

[tstrimple]

I'm a salary employee who filled out three fucking separate time sheets last week. Doesn't matter how many hours I work. I have to send these stupid fucking timesheets in. Doesn't matter how many hours I work. I don't qualify for overtime.

[theamk]

Let me try to restate my argument:

If your boss is bad, you are still going to be working extra hours. Timesheets DO NOT PREVENT extra hours for computer programmers (unless there is also pervasive surveillance, like in the worst consulting shops).

Look, I've worked in a few places with timesheets before. In one place, there was a "no overtime" policy. All this means you always put 38 hours on your timesheets, no matter how much time you actually work. Worked 57 hours? Well, you put down 1 hour in your timesheet for every 1.5 hours actually working.

So I am sorry, but your idea is super naive. It's not going to work. It will make life worse, but will not provide benefits.

[kelseyfrog]

If your boss is bad, they'll abuse power no matter the system. I don't disagree. But that's true in every field. So why do IT support, paralegals, and lab techs manage to make non-exempt status work without "pervasive surveillance"?

Help me connect the dots: how do you get from "I had a bad boss who broke the rules" to "therefore we should remove the legal framework that makes rule-breaking punishable"? Because without that framework, exploitation isn't just a possibility, it's legal.

That’s like saying "people will speed, so speed limits don’t work." Sure, some people speed, but the world without those limits and the legal weight behind them is objectively worse.

[close04]

Employee timesheets (salaries, not payed per hour) are never for the employee. They exist only to create a paper trail for the employer to use “as needed”. It will always say what the company or manager needs it to say.

I can’t imagine a scenario where the company creates an abusive OT environment but timesheets foil that.

Some employees will see these situations as an opportunity to show they go the extra mile. Some managers will be more than happy to allow it to reap the benefits. Everyone wins until one of them doesn’t, and that’s usually the overworked person.

P.S. In the speeding analogy the relationship between parties and the conflict of interest are very different. You’re not expected to speed to impress the police, and the police wants to catch you and make money from your mistake.

[kelseyfrog]

I get that timesheets can be gamed, but OT exemptions make wage theft legal by design. How do you square defending exemptions with opposing abuse?

[theamk]

Where did you get this from: "I had a bad boss who broke the rules"?

Bosses don't just say "you need to work 12 hours today". They say: "You need to get this done by Friday or I'll put you on PIP. Also, you are not authorized for the overtime on this project."

Did this boss break any rules? If yes, which ones? Because I don't see anything how your proposed law will make it this better.

And that should also explain what's special about software engineering:

IT support people get scheduled by an hour, and it's easy to see how much they worked. Boss cannot say "work for 10am to 10pm", _that_ would be clear and obvious rule breaking any judge will understand. And vehicle speed is very simple and unambiguous, so the rules are very simple (even if they are not enforced much).

Software engineers get tasks assigned, and no one can tell how long the task will take - Is "Fix bug 12345 by Friday" a reasonable request or not? Was this engineer put on PIP because they refused to do overtime, or was this because they were genuinely not a good fit for the position? No one can tell.