[wolvesechoes]

But you should be aware that russian foreign policy is not decided in the television. TV propaganda serves internal purposes. And there is a policy and strategy on Kremlin, not just crazy evil Putin trying to destroy the world of Good.

Contrary to hysteric media narrative, decision makers in Kremlin are not mad, crazy or whatever, and believing this brings more harm than good. Russia isn't strong enough to seriously threaten Western Europe, and they are aware of it. Moreover, they have not much to gain by trying to conquer Lisbon versus monstrous costs they would need to bear, even if we ignore the fact they wouldn't be able to not only reach Lisbon, but Berlin as well. Europe is no longer a center of the world, regardless if we like it or not.

That doesn't mean Russia cannot harm interests of countries of Western Europe, carry out sabotage acts, sow and fuel internal strife etc. They can, and they do. But it is not an existential threat.

[steveBK123]

Whats the endgame of the "Russia isn't quite as bad/powerful/ambitious as you think, just let them take Ukraine" posture though?

Where do the Baltics and Poland stand in such a scenario? And in 5-20 years when they've encroached there, what of Germany? Do we let them just slowly digest Eastern Europe all over again?

[fijiaarone]

At what point before the US coup on 2014 was Ukraine not controlled by Russia?

There is an answer, but probably only an actual Ukrainian “nationalist” can tell you. And it was only a couple of years.

[fifilura]

Good that Ukraine is a democracy now then, and control themselves.

[wolvesechoes]

> just let them take Ukraine

Eh, I always forget it is kinda pointless to discuss politics here.

Never stated that they should just take Ukraine, or they are not "as bad". And please spare me lectures about lingering doom of the Easter Europe - I live in Poland, 20 km from the Ukrainian border. I am aware of stakes, especially considering idiocy of my government.

What I objected to is a proposition that "Europe" is some political monolith, and all countries here are equally threatened by Russia. Some European countries are under serious threat (mine among them), others are less threatened, and some are not threatened in any serious manner.

Lack of understanding this causes people to be constantly surprised that things look as they look.

[fifilura]

I am more surprised by the reaction of Hungary than Portugal's reaction. They gave even been invaded by Soviets.

The other commenter from Ireland had a good point about rule based world order. And Ukraine has received a lot of help in particular from Canada but also from Australia.

[wolvesechoes]

But not enough to actually help them win the war, and why? Because stakes are not high enough for Canada or Australia. The same is true for countries I listed before. Poland for example is different - stakes are very high, but we are governed by morons and worms.

Obviously many countries see it beneficial to prevent Russia from reaching its goals, because that's how international politics work, especially when everything became global, but it doesn't mean they are threatened by it or they would be invaded if Ukraine falls.

The hope that punishing Russia for breaking rules would in any way prevent others from trying the same in the future is naive. For rules to be respected in a particular moment of history, there has to be a force that is able to effectively enforce those rules in that particular moment of history. Without it any punishment that happened in past will not matter.

As for Hungary - Orban is very good player. inb4 no, I wouldn't like to live in Hungary, but that doesn't prevent me from appreciating political skill.

[fifilura]

I actually don't understand what you are trying to say in any of your posts. There are lots of words, nitpicks about saying "all of Europe" when some countries are less affected than others, "I am from Poland" "out government are morons" without saying how. "Canada themselves does not give Ukraine enough to win the war" "Orban is a good player".

You are saying lots of things but there is no coherency, no strategy, no alternatives.