[ryao]

My point is that this pattern is not object oriented programming. As for a default behavior with it, you usually would do that by either always adding the default pointer when creating the structure or calling the default whenever the pointer is NULL.

In the Linux VFS for example, there are optimized functions for reading and writing, but if those are not implemented, a fallback to unoptimized functions is done at the call sites. Both sets are function pointers and you only need to implement one if I recall correctly.

[f1shy]

To be fair, OOP is not 100% absolutely perfectly defined. Strustrup swears C++ is OOP, Alan Key, at least at some point laughed at C++, and people using CLOS have yet another definition

[pjmlp]

You forgot about people using BETA, or Self, or ......

[naasking]

> My point is that this pattern is not object oriented programming.

I think the "is/is not" question is not so clear. If you think of "is" as a whether there's a homomorphism, then it makes sense to say that it is OOP, but it can qualify as being something else too, ie. it's not an exclusionary relationaship.

[ryao]

Object oriented programming implies certain contracts that the compiler enforces that are not enforced with data abstraction. Given that object oriented programming and data abstraction two live side by side in C++, we can spot the differences between member functions that have contracts enforced, and members function pointers that do not. Member functions have an implicit this pointer, and in a derived class, can call the base class version via a shorthand notation to the compiler (BaseClass::func() or super()), unless that base class version is a pure virtual function. Member function pointers have no implicit this pointer unless one is explicitly passed. They have no ability to access a base class variant via some shorthand notation to the compiler because the compiler has no contract saying that OOP is being done and there is a base class version of this function. Finally, classes with unimplemented member functions may not be instantiated as objects, while classes with unimplemented member functions pointers may.

If you think of the differences as being OOP implies contracts with the compiler and data abstraction does not (beyond a simple structure saying where the members are in memory), it becomes easier to see the two as different things.

[1718627440]

So you can opt out or in to syntactic sugar, that makes C++ an interesting and useful language, but how you implement OOP, doesn't really affect if it is OOP.

[ryao]

By this logic, C is an objective oriented language. It is widely held to not be. That is why there were two separate approaches to extend it to make it object oriented, C++ and Objective-C.

[1718627440]

You can implement OOP in C as you can in any language, the article is an example of this. C is not an OOP language in any way, it doesn't have any syntactic features for it and use the term "object" for something different.

[ryao]

The article mentions file_operations, but ignores that it has what would be a static member function in C++ in the form of ->check_flags(), which is never in a vtable. The article author is describing overlap between object oriented programming and something else, called data abstraction, which is what is really being done inside Linux, and calling it OOP.

You can implement OOP in C if you do vtables for inheritance hierarchies manually, among other things, but that is different than what Linux does.

[teo_zero]

> Object oriented programming implies certain contracts that the compiler enforces

Sorry, but where did you got this definition from? I've always thought OOP as a way of organizing your data and your code, sometimes supported by language-specific constructs, but not necessarily.

Can you organize your data into lists, trees, and hashmaps even if your language does not have those as native types? So you can think in a OO way even if the language has no notion of objects, methods, etc.

[ryao]

> Sorry, but where did you got this definition from?

It is from experience with object oriented languages (mainly C++ and Java). Technically, you can do everything manually, but that involves shoehorning things into the OO paradigm that do not naturally fit, like the article author did when he claimed struct file_operations was a vtable when it has ->check_flags(), which would be equivalent to a static member function in C++. That is never in a vtable.

If Al Viro were trying to restrict himself to object oriented programming, he would need to remove function pointers to what are effectively the equivalent of static member functions in C++ to turn it into a proper vtable, and handle accesses to that function through the “class”, rather than the “object”.

Of course, since he is not doing object oriented programming, placing pointers to what would be virtual member functions and static member functions into the same structure is fine. There will never be a use case where you want to inherit from a filesystem implementation’s struct file_operations, so there is no need for the decoupling that object oriented programming forces.

> I've always thought OOP as a way of organizing your data and your code, sometimes supported by language-specific constructs, but not necessarily.

It certainly can be, but it is not the only way.

> Can you organize your data into lists, trees, and hashmaps even if your language does not have those as native types?

This is an odd question. First, exactly what is a native type? If you mean primitive types, then yes. Even C++ does that. If you mean standard library compound types, again, yes. The C++ STL started as a third party library at SGI before becoming part of the C++ standard. If you mean types that you can define, then probably not without a bunch of pain, as then we are going back to the dark days of manually remembering offsets as people had to do in assembly language, although it is technically possible to do in both C and C++.

What you are asking seems to be exactly what data abstraction is, which involves making an interface that separates use and implementation, allowing different data structures to be used to organize data using the same interface. As per Wikipedia:

> For example, one could define an abstract data type called lookup table which uniquely associates keys with values, and in which values may be retrieved by specifying their corresponding keys. Such a lookup table may be implemented in various ways: as a hash table, a binary search tree, or even a simple linear list of (key:value) pairs. As far as client code is concerned, the abstract properties of the type are the same in each case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_(computer_science)...

Getting back to doing data structures without object oriented programming, this is often done in C using a structure definition and the CPP (C PreProcessor) via intrusive data structures. Those break encapsulation, but are great for performance since they can coalesce memory allocations and reduce pointer indirections for objects indexed by multiple structures. They also are extremely beneficial for debugging, since you can see all data structures indexing the object. Here are some of the more common examples:

https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/sys/queue.h

https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/sys/tree.h

sys/queue.h is actually part of the POSIX standard, while sys/tree.h never achieved standardization. You will find a number of libraries that implement trees like libuutil on Solaris/Illumos, glib on GNU, sys/tree.h on BSD, and others. The implementations are portable to other platforms, so you can pick the one you want and use it.

As for “hash maps” or hash tables, those tend to be more purpose built in practice to fit the data from what I have seen. However, generic implementations exist:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6118539/why-are-there-no...

That said, anyone using hash tables at scale should pay very close attention to how their hash function distributes keys to ensure it is as close to uniformly random as possible, or you are going to have a bad time. Most other applications would be fine using binary search trees. It probably is not a good idea to use hash tables with user controlled keys from a security perspective, since then a guy named Bob can pick keys that cause collisions to slow everything down in a DoS attack. An upgrade from binary search trees that does not risk issues from hash function collisions would be B-trees.

By the way, B-trees are containers and cannot function as intrusive data structures, so you give up some convenience when debugging if you use B-Trees.

[1718627440]

> handle accesses to that function through the “class”, rather than the “object”

You don't need classes for OOP. C++ not putting methods that logically operate on an object, but don't need a pointer to it, into the automatically created vtable, is an optimization and an implementation detail. I don't know why you think that putting this function into a vtable precludes OOP.

Wait, how does inheritance work when the method is not in the vtable?

[ryao]

The calling convention for C++ non-static member functions always includes a this pointer, even if the function does not use it. Removing it on member functions that do not use it would pose a problem if another class inherited from this class and overrode the function definition with one that did use it. Maybe in very special cases whole program optimization could safely remove the this pointer, but it is questionable whether any compiler author would go through the trouble given that the exception handling would need to know about the change. Outside of whole program optimization, it is unlikely removing this from member functions that do not use it would ever happen because it would break ABI stability.

As for how inheritance works when the member function is not in the vtable, that depends on what kind of member function it is. All C++ functions are given a mangled name that is stuffed into C’s infrastructure for linking symbols. For static member functions, inheritance is irrelevant since they are tied to the class. Calls to static member functions go directly to the mangled function with no indirections, just as if it had been a global function. For non-static virtual member functions, you use the vtable pointer to find it. For non-virtual member functions, the call goes straight to the function as if a global function had been called (and the this pointer is still passed, even if the function does not use it), since the compiler knows the type and thus can tell the linker to have calls there go to the function through the appropriately mangled name. It is just like calling a global function.

[1718627440]

> My point is that this pattern is not object oriented programming.

Isn't this exactly how most (every?) OOP language implements it? You would say a C++ virtual method isn't OOP?

[ryao]

Member function pointers and member functions in C++ are two different things. Member function pointers are not OOP. They are data abstraction.

The entire point of OOP is to make contracts with the compiler that forcibly tie certain things together that are not tied together with data abstraction. Member functions are subject to inheritance and polymorphism. Member function pointers are not. Changing the type of your class will never magically change the contents of a member function pointer, but it will change the constants of a non-virtual member function. A member function will have a this pointer to refer to the class. A member function pointer does not unless you explicitly add one (named something other than this in C++).

[1718627440]

Yeah, but the compiler implements these by adding vtables, propagating vtables values across inheritance hierarchies, adding another parameter.

You claim when the compiler does this, it's OOP, but when I do it, it's not?

[dragonwriter]

Ìf you do it, it can still be OOP, its just not in an OO language. People have trouble separating using a paradigm and using a language focused on the paradigm, for some reason.

[ryao]

The entire point of OOP in every OOP language that I have ever used has been to have the language try to constrain what you can do by pushing restrictions on syntactic sugar involving objects, inheritance and encapsulation, so I would say yes. The marketing claims that people will be more productive at programming by using these.

[1718627440]

Yes, you need to have that to have an OOP language. OOP is object-oriented _Programming_, it's about how you program, not what features the language has.

[ryao]

In hindsight, I had your remark confused with another remark insisting that struct inode_operations is a vtable, despite it having what would be static member functions in C++, which are never in vtables, and there being no inheritance hierarchy. If you are disciplined enough to do what you said, then I could see that as being OOP, but the context here is of something that is not OOP and only happens to overlap with it. The article mentions file_operations, but ignores that it has what would be a static member function in C++ in the form of ->check_flags(), which is never in a vtable.