[naikrovek]

Who in the world would prefer a web-based database tool which you must run locally over a normal web database tool which runs locally?

The “thick” tool will always be more efficient than a browser-based tool. It will always be more native and integrate with the OS better. It will perform better (though that may not always be visible).

Yes I am seriously asking. The web is the worst application platform ever created, despite being maybe the only true cross-platform platform.

[breadwinner]

Some people prefer native apps. Some people prefer web-based apps. Native apps are not automatically better -- there are web-based apps that work better than native apps.

> The web is the worst application platform ever created

That's an extreme position. Today no one is making native Windows apps because the web has defeated native apps on Windows.

[naikrovek]

It is absolutely not an extreme position. It is the only position available if any intense work happens in the UI. JavaScript is SLOW. WASM is SLOW compared to native code.

the web has defeated native apps on windows because native apps on windows are dead all on their own. not because browser applications are better, because they aren't, but because Microsoft drove those applications into the ground with clear intent.

I don't think people realize this, but browsers are SLOW. Not just a little, A LOT. Native code will always be faster, will help extend battery life, and are far simpler to write, to understand, and to support. On top of that, there are entire classes of security vulnerabilities that simply don't apply if you aren't a browser application.

Browser applications ARE convenient, though. But we previously solved that on the desktop and people forgot about it, so now it apparently is IMPOSSIBLE to click a single link and have a running application locally, despite it being easily done in the recent past. That can never happen again, apparently.

I don't expect the HN crowd to understand this. I expect the HN crowd to NOT understand this, as getting your silly startup funded requires that you not understand this simple concept. There aren't any startups making desktop applications.

I do expect technical people to understand why browser applications are bad compared to equivalently-featured native applications. But it's a faux-pas to say so anyway, because it might impact how many people give you money in the future or how much they give. People gladly trade money in exchange for ignoring inconvenient problems all day long, and without a second thought, too. Somehow, I find that anathema, despite being in the position to accept such offers several times throughout my career.

I am really starting to come around to the idea that everyone that works at Meta, Google, or at any startup writing a web application knowing that it is easier to write despite all of the horrible tradeoffs has weak moral fiber. I think those people are sellouts. I think those people know that they are creating tools that die when the company dies, require a continuous internet connection despite knowing that a constant internet connection is not feasible for a large portion of people, and create software that uses far more energy than it should despite knowing that native code is far more efficient.

Being an engineer means you face the problems you have, and you do not make up problems in order to create a business opportunity. But people forget all about their scruples when money stares them in the face.

The desktop environments that we have are constructs, and as such they can be made better. They can be remade. There can be a good cross platform environment that is easy to develop for, is relatively efficient, performant, consistent, and which allows for offline use if we just want to create that. But the money is too good if you want to ignore that problem, I guess.

[vendiddy]

I can't remember who I read this from (it might have been Alan Kay) but they basically said the web browser should have been an address bar with the ability to run any sandboxed applications in the screen below. They said the internet well designed but the browser was a disaster.

So hyperlinks were good but the rest was a bad design. An HTML viewer and Javascript interpreter would have just been one possible app to run in the browser.

It is a shame that, to this day, the browser can't easily handle running arbitrary applications. You're still effectively locked into JS/HTML.

[naikrovek]

I agree with all of that. The web today took many wrong turns and each time it did everyone pretended like there was no other option.

We’ve literally chosen the worst version of the web possible. Intentionally.

[vendiddy]

Yes we have. I don't know why you got so much pushback.

Right now innovation moves at a slow pace the web nobody seems to realize the what-if. The W3C announces some incremental improvement to JS feature and everyone gets excited. It just reminds me that all we realistically have is JS.

There are so many hacks on top of hacks. Typescript compiles to JS because, well, you only have JS. So many attempts at compile-to-JS languages. There are dozens of problems that should not exist.

Meanwhile in the native world, you have huge a diversity of programming languages and tooling. No committee is needed for each language to experiment with new features.

The unfortunate part is that the envisioned browser would have been far simpler to implement and more extensible than the mess we have now.

[breadwinner]

Your main complaint is that browser-based applications are slow? If so you should be able to name some web apps that you think are slow and would benefit from being rewritten as native apps.

In my opinion, native macOS apps used to be awesome, but when Apple switched to flat UI they removed one of the chief attractions of native apps: better look & feel.

[naikrovek]

point randomly at any web application which does anything cpu intensive at all, such as ... drawing a graph. or checking a bunch of checkboxes after deciding which ones need to be checked. or runs javascript for anything.

you are pointing at a web application that is slower than a native one, and which uses more energy than a native application.

My main complaint is that everyone is avoiding the real problems because they fear that they may be too large to tackle. so, they make up other problems and solve those because they guess that solving those problems is easier. So they write web applications and mobile applications which are larger than entire operating systems like Windows XP or Windows 2000.