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by MisterTea 290 days ago
> object orientation is kind of everything is a file 2.0 in the form everything is an object

That is why I love Plan 9. 9P serves you a tree of named objects that can be byte addressed. Those objects are on the other end of an RPC server that can run anywhere, on any machine, thanks to 9p being architecture agnostic. Those named objects could be memory, hardware devices, actual on-disk files, etc. Very flexible and simple architecture.
1 comments
pjmlp 290 days ago
I rather pick Inferno, as it improved on top of Plan 9 learnings, like the safe userspace in form of Limbo, after conclusion throwing away Alef wasn't that great in the end.
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MisterTea 290 days ago
Inferno was a commercial attempt at competing with Sun's Java. The plan 9 folks had to shift gears so they took Plan 9 and built a smaller portable version of it in about a year. Both the Plan 9 kernel and Inferno kernel share a lot of code and build system so moving code between them is pretty simple.

The real interesting magic behind Plan 9 is 9P and its VFS design so that leaves Inferno with one thing going for it: Dis, its user space VM. However, Dis does not protect memory as it was developed for mmu-less embedded use. It implicitly trusts the programmer not to clobber other programs memory. It is also hopelessly stuck in 32bit land.

These days Inferno is not actively maintained by anyone. There are a few forks in various states and a few attempts to make inferno 64 bit but so far no one has succeeded. You can check: https://github.com/henesy/awesome-inferno

Alef was abandoned because they needed to build a compiler for each arch and they already had a full C compiler suite. So they took the ideas from Alef and made the thread(2) C library. If you're curious about the history of Alef and how it influenced thread(2), Limbo and Go: https://seh.dev/go-legacy/

These days Plan 9 is still alive and well in the form of 9front, an actively developed fork. I know a lot of the devs and some of them daily drive their work via 9front running on actual hardware. I also daily drive 9front via drawterm to a physical CPU sever that also serves DNS and DHCP so my network is managed via ndb. Super simple to setup vs other clunky operating systems.

And lastly, I would like to see a better Inferno but it would be a lot of work. 64 bit support and memory protection would be key along with other languages. It would make a better drawterm and a good platform for web applications.

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zozbot234 290 days ago
> I would like to see a better Inferno but it would be a lot of work. 64 bit support and memory protection would be key along with other languages. It would make a better drawterm and a good platform for web applications.

Doesn't Wasm/WASI provide these same features already? That doesn't seem like "a lot of work", it's basically there already. Does dis add anything compelling when compared to that existing technology stack?

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MisterTea 290 days ago
Inferno was initially released in 1996, 21 years before WASM existed.

An inferno built using WASM would be interesting. Though WASI would likely be supplanted by a Plan 9/Inferno interface possibly with WASI compatibility. Instead of a hacked up hyper text viewer you start with a real portable virtual OS that can run hosted or native. Then you build whatever you'd like on top like HTML renderers, JS interpreters, media players/codecs, etc. You profile is a user account so you get security for free using the OS mechanisms. Would make a very interesting platform.

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zozbot234 290 days ago
WASI has nothing to do with hypertext though. Even WASM itself is not especially web centric, despite the name.
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MisterTea 290 days ago
I am well aware of that. My point is a web browser, originally a hypertext viewer, is now a clunky runtime for all sorts of ad-hoc standards including a WASM VM. So instead, start with a portable WASM VM that is a light weight OS that you build a browser inside of composed of individual components like Lego. You get all the benefits of having a real OS including process isolation, memory management, file system, security, and tooling. WASI is a POSIX like ABI/API that does not fit the Plan 9/Inferno design as they thankfully aren't Unix.
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pjmlp 290 days ago
All of that prose doesn't change the fact that at the time Inferno was built, it was an improvement over Plan 9, taking its experience into consideration for improvements.

I know pretty well the history, I was around at the time after all, and Plan 9 gets more attention these days, exactly because most UNIX heads usually ignore Inferno.

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