[Joeri]

LLMs are not people, but they are still minds, and to deny even that seems willfully luddite.

While they are generating tokens they have a state, and that state is recursively fed back through the network, and what is being fed back operates not just at the level of snippets of text but also of semantic concepts. So while it occurs in brief flashes I would argue they have mental state and they have thoughts. If we built an LLM that was generating tokens non-stop and could have user input mixed into the network input, it would not be a dramatic departure of today’s architecture.

It also clearly has goals, expressed in the RLHF tuning and the prompt. I call those goals because they directly determine its output, and I don’t know what a goal is other than the driving force behind a mind’s outputs. Base model training teaches it patterns, finetuning and prompt teaches it how to apply those patterns and gives it goals.

I don’t know what it would mean for a piece of software to have feelings or concerns or emotions, so I cannot say what the essential quality is that LLMs miss for that. Consider this thought exercise: if we were to ever do an upload of a human mind, and it was executing on silicon, would they not be experiencing feelings because their thoughts are provably a deterministic calculation?

I don’t believe in souls, or at the very least I think they are a tall claim with insufficient evidence. In my view, neurons in the human brain are ultimately very simple deterministic calculating machines, and yet the full richness of human thought is generated from them because of chaotic complexity. For me, all human thought is pattern matching. The argument that LLMs cannot be minds because they only do pattern matching … I don’t know what to make of that. But then I also don’t know what to make of free will, so really what do I know?

[Dzugaru]

There is no hidden state in a recurrent nets sense. Each new token just has all the previous tokens and that’s it.

[dgfitz]

> Consider this thought exercise: if we were to ever do an upload of a human mind, and it was executing on silicon, would they not be experiencing feelings because their thoughts are provably a deterministic calculation?

You just said “consider this impossibility” as if there is any possibility of it happening. You might as well have said “consider traveling faster than the speed of light” which sure, fun to think about.

We don’t even know how most of the human brain even works. We throw pills at people to change their mental state in hopes that they become “less X” or “more Y” with a whole list of caveats like “if taking pill reduce X makes you _more_ X, stop taking it” because we have no idea what we’re doing. Pretending we can use statistical models to create a model that is capable of truly unique thought… stop drinking the kool-aid. Stop making LLMs something they’re not. Appreciate them for what they are, a neat tool. A really neat tool, even.

This is not a valid thought experiment. Your entire point hinges on “I don’t believe in souls” which is fine, no problem there, but it does not a valid point make.