[akavi]

A zero-sum mindset on a website dedicated to programming of all places? Where we literally create wealth out of nothing but coffee and the strength of our minds?

My love for my country means I want it to be the greatest in the world. Waterloo grads make America better. Period.

[philosophty]

Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum.

You're just hand-waiving away reality, which is a very non-programmer thing to do.

[NikolaNovak]

A wonderful Book on immigration, math, history, facts, and zero sum

From an American author

(Illustrated, to reach those who talk about "stealing American jobs from Americans!!!" a lot).

From Amazon Canada, because I like fun too :-)

"Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration"

https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE

[philosophty]

I've never met anyone that argued for open borders that wasn't capable of isolating themselves from the negative effects. Like say, a tenured professor like Bryan Caplan.

Open borders might be net-positive but would very predictably devastate the lives of poor people in America. Not that most people who advocate it know anything about being poor.

[NikolaNovak]

Hang on, are we upset that immigrants are taking the jobs of poor people in America?

I thought based on original post we were upset immigrants are taking high paying specialist jobs from the rich techies in San Francisco?

Or are they just just taking all the jobs while miraculously not spending any money and not creating any demand and not participating in economy at all?

I just want to understand this evil scourge appropriately.

P.s. (And oh, boy, will I compete in the "knowing about being poor" with anybody on HN :)

[philosophty]

Poor Americans are the most in need of the opportunity tech jobs provide. That's how they can become non-poor Americans.

Poor Americans are also the most vulnerable to unskilled immigration making them even poorer than they already are.

It's not that complicated.

[prewett]

If they are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, that would imply that they are unskilled themselves. I don't see how they will be able to take advantage "opportunity tech jobs provide"--a highly skilled set of jobs.

I agree that poor Americans are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, but suggesting that highly skilled tech jobs are a solution is just not realistic.

[pj_mukh]

Seeing this pablum on Hackernews is quite startling. It seems like its going to remain the "global warming is fake" of the economics world.

"Oh but I know of this study that.."...I know..I know.

[philosophty]

Your argument is that all games are non-zero sum and supply and demand don't apply for some magical reason?

Seems like I'm making the sound economic argument and you're just casting aspersions.

[NikolaNovak]

I think the general overall notion is:

1. If, say, an immigrant earns 70k, they will also spend 70k. It's an equilibrium - they "create" as much jobness as they "take".

2. The easiest intuitive explanation I have is - imagine a million immigrants move in. They're basically a self sufficient city - with police and doctors and teachers and mechanics and salespeople and whatever. Doesn't bother me.

In fact, America is by definition (unless one is native American) the land of immigrants. It is clearly factually historically obvious that immigration was not zero sum and it continually expanded overall prosperity and might of the American empire. It's only when we zoom into the very here and now that some people, for some reason, freak out and feel "omg immigrants!!".

[philosophty]

1. Immigrants send to their home countries very significant amounts of their income, so it's always going to be net-negative in that sense.

2. Those companies that hired 1 million skilled workers could have hired 1 million Americans, giving them much better jobs than they otherwise would get. What's the good argument for giving them to non-Americans instead?

Of course America is a land of immigrants. And of course immigration can be positive-sum.

That doesn't prove that it's always positive-sum.

It's easy to see many situations that are not positive sum. Huge amounts of unskilled immigration is, at least in the short-term, going to be extremely zero-sum because they will consume far more public resources than they pay for, depriving the existing users. This has played out many times.

In other words:

Too much skilled immigration takes good middle class jobs away from citizens that need them.

Too much unskilled immigration takes public resources and jobs away from citizens that need them.

Given those facts, the argument should be about how much is too much of any particular kind of immigration for any particular time and place.

[NikolaNovak]

>> Those companies that hired 1 million skilled workers could have hired 1 million Americans, giving them much better jobs than they otherwise would get. What's the good argument for giving them to non-Americans instead?

I think you have the mindset where there are X jobs, static, unchanging, God given or government ordained or whatever, and if an immigrant takes a job that job is gone. Array, counter, n=n-1, done.

That's... Not my mindset, and I don't think that's how it works.

Those million people don't take a million jobs from some enumerated, inflexible list, and then shutdown. They live. They consume! They earn and then they turn around and they spend, they need homes and food and clothes and education, all of which is jobs.

I think you imagined a swarm of people who displaced others, but imagine literally a million people coming and creating a new city. So of the million, some are techies and some are janitors and some are farmers and some are doctors and they have a nice little self sufficient city and don't bug or impact anybody outside of that city.

If/when/once you visualize the concept of that self sufficiency, now we can discuss the more complex case of them joining an existing city - because yes of course it's more complex than people coming in and living independently, but it's also more complex than them stealing jobs off some imaginary closed list.

[pj_mukh]

Lol. Called it. Always with the moving goal posts.

Oh but remittances are high! Think of the short term effects.

I will mention my Indian coworkers parents use the remittances to buy Netflix subscriptions, Coca-Cola and American Corn but it won’t be enough. It’ll never be enough.

Constant-pie thinking is an all consuming identity not a rational viewpoint that can be reasoned with.

[pj_mukh]

“Demand is fixed, they're coming or your jobs” is your “Temperatures always rise and fall, there is no global warming”.

I'm sorry to be this dismissive, but I've had this conversation too many times and you will simply see what you want to see. There is no convincing coal workers of global warming.

[philosophty]

Your arguments are so convincing you don't even need to make them and there's no chance you're the one that's refusing to acknowledge reality. Okay...

[jdminhbg]

> Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum.

Not even wrong

[nothercastle]

It’s probably negative sum because you end up hiring more offshore workers but still end up spending less