[timr]

It is substantially harder and slower to read a stream of hiragana than to read a stream of hiragana and kanji. I don't know if you know anything about the language, but it's not because of homophones (though that is certainly improved) -- it's chunking.

Japanese written language has the property that when you see kanji followed by one of a very small number of hiragana patterns, you know you're seeing a verb. Stemming and deriving the meaning of the verb is trivial, because it closely follows from the Kanji (e.g. 見る => 'see', and pretty much every noun or verb involving 見 carries that connotation).

Toss in the few particles (を、で、に、へ、が、は), and you've broken a sentence into semantic chunks with very little mental effort -- and along the way, gained much of the meaning at the same time.

Doing the equivalent with a stream of nothing but hiragana requires a kind of parsing that is like depth-first prefix search, but with ambiguous matching at each terminal. It's incredibly tedious.

[svara]

I can read Japanese, yes, and obviously also find hiragana-only text hard to parse. I think that would be almost completely solved by using spaces and getting more practice though.

I'm much better at reading than speaking/listening, so the Kanji also help as a clue to the meaning, but that is entirely a non-native problem I think.

[timr]

> the Kanji also help as a clue to the meaning, but that is entirely a non-native problem I think.

Not sure what you mean by that. It's almost a daily occurrence that someone tries to explain a word's meaning by drawing invisible kanji on their palms.

Someday I'll figure out how to read that.

[hintymad]

> it's chunking.

I guess the ultimate question is whether we can have a spelling system that totally mimics how we communicate verbally, so chunking becomes as easy as when we listen to the the spoken language.

I doubt it will happen though. Historical heritage aside, Kanji does pack enough information to make reading very easy. Unless government interferes hard, the new system needs to be way better than the existing one to get adopted.

[coffeeling]

It doesn't even need to do that. Korean and Vietnamese are easy examples where all the writing is phonetic despite Korean having basically the same structure and problems with Chinese loans as Japanese, and Vietnamese having a ton of Sinitic loans and general properties that are basically the same as Chinese. Yet phonetic writing just works.

[Macha]

I mean, if they got rid of kanji, presumably they would introduce spaces. It's not an alien concept, it was used in early computers and early computer games, and still get used in games and books aimed at kids:

https://www.famitsu.com/images/000/190/128/y_5e083812bfff9.j...

(Pokemon also has a full kana mode, but due to the number of homonyms in Japanese, I think while it might be easier for actual Japanese children, even with the spaces it's harder for a Japanese learner than the kanji mode unless you're literally in your very first month. There's also things that will be obvious to natives but confusing to learners like that すげー in that screenshot is a slangy すごい)

[astrobe_]

Yet, that's exactly what you do when you read English - and many of us even read it as a foreign language with different roots and different grammar etc. So I don't understand how it would be more tedious in hiragana; it looks like a "just get used to it" thing to me.

[felipeerias]

Japanese has fewer sounds and a lot more homophones than English, so purely phonetic writing becomes a lot more ambiguous. Children grow out of it at an early age.

Furthermore, kanji often allows the reader to skip phonetics altogether, because the symbol itself carries the meaning. It’s a bit like how people understand emojis without having to make a sound for them in their heads.

As a result, the Japanese are able to read very fast in their native language, so switching to a different system would carry significant drawbacks.

[numpad0]

There's an advocate group for all-kana Japanese that existed since 1920, just decade or two after pseudo-Chinese styles was deprecated and kana-kanji mixed as-spoken text became the standard, before even kana switched from katakana to hiragana, and they don't even use all-kana text on its official propaganda page anymore[0], so there's that.

0: https://www.kanamozi.org/hikari939-0501.html

1: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AB%E3%83%8A%E3%83%A2%E3...

[timr]

No you don’t. There’s actually a lot of research showing that native English speakers don’t read letters, they read word shapes. And people who read fastest read in even larger groups of words, to the point of eliding segments of sentences or paragraphs entirely.

Chunking is incredibly important for reading speed, and reading hiragana is much closer to reading letters than words. My reading speed in Japanese is nowhere near native, but the way I’ve gained speed so far is almost exclusively by increasing my minimum comprehension unit: I see word patterns, common grammatical constructions, etc., and I don’t need to read them.

[wizzwizz4]

> native English speakers don’t read letters, they read word shapes.

Don't try to teach children to read this way, though: it's a high-level technique that comes with practice and familiarity, with near-instant fallback to lower-level techniques as appropriate, or the resort of dyslexics who cannot read any other way. Teaching children to use the approaches used by struggling readers will tend to produce more struggling readers than necessary.

[arccy]

english has spaces to separate words, japanese doesn't. have you tried reading english without spaces?

[coffeeling]

In the real world nobody is masochistic enough to not adopt spaces if writing without kanji.

Old Japanese videogames couldn't use kanji due to technical limitations. They wrote in all kana but used spaces to make the text easier to read.

Modern Japanese children's books and eg. even Pokemon games still? Same thing, kana and spaces.

When Korean transitioned away from Japanese-style mixed script to purely alphabetic writing, what did they do? They adopted spacing.

The only time "but Japanese doesn't have spaces" comes up, ever, is when people argue against the removal of kanji. It's not a realistic scenario, in light of very recent history and current practice.

[klausa]

This is a very silly argument.

If one is seriously proposing abolishing kanji, surely "also let's add spaces where they make sense" is a much easier pill to swallow.

[bobthepanda]

In a world where hiragana and katakana are adopted to eliminate characters, it's not that hard to imagine also adopting spacing. Hangul for Korean did not originally have spaces in the language.

[latentsea]

It's all solvable. Korean did it. Koreans are fine.

For verbs you could just replace the kanji with katakana so that you still get the pattern recognition of okurigana as a visual aide.

They just don't want to do it, because they don't like to change. A generation educated under a new system wouldn't have difficulty using it. They would however lose access to an abundance of cultural artefacts which play a central role in daily life.

[numpad0]

Koreans don't seem entirely fine to me, but besides, Japanese pronunciation is actually more aggressively simplified than the other two CJK languages during Edo era that numbers of homophone is out of control.

There are as many as 50 homophones for koushou due to this, for example[1]. Communication by phonetic transcripts alone just isn't going to work.

1: https://togetter.com/li/2380657?page=2

[latentsea]

Guess Japanese people just can't talk to one another without subtitles.

[numpad0]

Or there could be cues not captured well in the script. I don't know. But the rightmost column is real.

1: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%93%E3%81%86%E3%81%97%E...

[latentsea]

I've spoken Japanese for the last 15 years. I'm aware of how many homophones there are. I still think by and large it wouldn't be a problem, and that natives would adapt to route around it. It's not a blocker.

[numpad0]

I was just watching random QuizKnock video that came up on YouTube and hey, we're not pronouncing those "homonyms" same, or are we.

[hintymad]

This made me spend 20 minutes cleaning up all the drinks from my desk and my screen.

[coffeeling]

It's mostly about lack of practice, frankly. The chief reason people say kana-only writing (like in old videogames for example) is hard to read: People competent at reading any language don't spell things out in detail, even when we subvocalize we first recognize the shape of the scribbles and our brain has a shortcut from a certain set of scribbles to certain morphemes/words, where the solid feeling of meaning comes from. No one actually reads these English posts by vocalizing letter by letter to slowly build the words together.

Every competent reader of Japanese is first and foremost used to the kanji-hiragana mixed script, and has shortcuts for the kanji forms of words and the sounds of those words. The hiragana only forms? Not so much. So when they complain about hiragana only being hard to read, they're not lying. It really is harder. But it's not harder due to any inherent defect in a hiragana-only script, it's just about a lack of exposure to form those shortcuts that make reading feel easy.

Similar arguments used to be made in Korea, yet if you look at Koreans today they have no difficulty in reading hangeul - they have spaces so the words have form, and they have mass exposure to the hangeul forms of words. Ergo, their shortcuts are for the phonetic forms and those are what feels natural, solid, meaningful and easy to read. Same as both of us in English or me in say, Finnish or Swedish or French.

[timr]

Maybe you're right that it's all just hard-headed stubbornness from fluent people. But I (and all other learners of Japanese) started by reading hiragana, and only later did we move to mixed script -- this is by necessity. Yet even when you factor in the difficulty of learning to read Kanji, reading Kanji is vastly easier than reading kana, even as a beginner.

Would spaces magically solve this problem? I guess it would solve some things -- you'd no longer have to guess where to terminate the prefix search, and I think you're right about word shape -- but it would definitely not provide the additional semantic context you get from having the high-bit-density characters in the mix. This makes reading faster.

I suspect that one could make a kana-only writing system that would be functional enough, but it would still be slower to read than mixed script. Also, the Korean comparison isn't exactly valid -- Korean has more sounds than Japanese. It seems minor, but Japanese has a ton of homonyms because of the tiny phoneme. Expanding that, even slightly, would be a benefit to reading.

[coffeeling]

Korean faces the exact same problems as Japanese, though - the language structure is similar, they have a ton of Chinese loans, and have in general gone through a largely identical history of writing development. They have somewhat fewer homonyms than Japanese, sure, but they still have tons from Chinese loans (hell, "coffee" and "nosebleed" sound the same, as do "blood" and "rain" in many cases).

It's somewhat hard to believe that Japanese sits in some magic spot where a phonetic script wouldn't work just fine when Korean does it fine, and on the Sinitic side people write books in pinyin, Vietnamese is phonetic, and the Dungan people write their 3-tone Mandarin dialect with cyrillic alphabet without even notating tones.

> Maybe you're right that it's all just hard-headed stubbornness from fluent people.

It's not just hard-headed stubbornness - reading kana really is more difficult to proficient readers of today's Japanese, and change is work.