[teucris]

This has been tried so many times[0][1]… heck even I made an app like this once using WiFi direct.

The idea is so solid and yet there are just enough pitfalls between Bluetooth reliability, platform differences, getting critical mass for effective relaying…it’s such a bummer that we can’t figure this one out. Decentralized message relays have the potential to work anywhere, be fully private, extremely difficult to block/censor, and (in theory) can scale indefinitely.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat

[1]: https://briarproject.org/

[vbezhenar]

I worked with BLE recently and found it very reliable. Also I was surprised at range it was able to communicate. Like 10 meters with walls - it works. Similar to WiFi.

I think, it's all matter of inventing a proper protocol on top of it, and enough work-hours put into the implementation to make software reliable.

[willseth]

The FindMy network is already doing this at scale with location data. Offline messaging might be too niche of a use case for Apple but surely they’ve considered it.

[stavros]

It very much doesn't. The FindMy network just scans for BT beacons around, and reports what it sees to Apple's servers via the cellular network. It very much doesn't do mesh networking at all.

[msgodel]

The missing piece might be thinking of these mesh networks as a new "tier 4" network and routing to the larger internet as quickly as possible.

One huge advantage of this (beyond better networking) would be that apps could use existing IP APIs which would help abstract away vendor/implementation specific problems and improve adoption.

Note that this doesn't necessarily depend on a tier 3 network so you could still accomplish your goals. The internet already has enough features to support partitions and local discovery.

You of course still have to have fixed administrative domains but in reality you always do. Someone takes initiative and sets up the group chat/gets their friends into it. I think if you're willing to mentally separate the network topology from the administrative topology this could be solved.

Of course that's really boring. It's just MDNS and ad-hoc Wifi plus some routing. Everything is pretty much already there (although iOS probably won't let you do it, as usual.)

[wslh]

But does WiFi Direct work on iOS so we can be on a music festival and mesh between your friends (Apple) mobiles? This would be much better than Bluetooth. I read about the MultipeerConnectivity framework but I am confused because in a recent discussion someone says that WiFi Direct has (development?) limitations? ELI5 please.

[brookst]

Apple uses AWDL, a proprietary protocol that predates WiFi direct. WiFi direct is kind of a mess, and then there’s WiFi aware. Last I heard when I was working in this space a couple of years ago there was supposed to be a WiFi direct 2 that would (as usual) unify standards and solve all the issues.

[sofixa]

The EU has mandated that Apple should support WiFi Direct for interoperability with things outside its ecosystem, so it's coming.

[brookst]

Which is hilarious because WiFi Direct is a mess. Possibly this will be the kick the industry needs to get a decent P2P ad hoc wifi protocol going, but more likely Apple will just implement what the EU demands and it will be just as terrible as wifi direct is today, so nobody will use it anyway and AWDL, as bad as it is, will remain the usable protocol in this space.

[willseth]

AWDL isn’t FindMy. It’s mostly for Airdrop and also uses Bluetooth for the initial connection then switches to WiFi for high bandwidth data.

[willseth]

I’m not sure it would since the whole Bluetooth stack is already designed for P2P. Apple’s network is a true mesh though and not point to point. If you share locations with your friends on FindMy using iPhones or AirTags you will get updates via the encrypted mesh network (that includes other peoples’ iPhones) without being connected to a WiFi or cell network.

https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...

[realitysballs]

Good link.

My interpretation here is that the location of a missing device can be passed around via Bluetooth mesh but that the last send must be sent via cellular or WiFi back to iCloud. So it’s P2P to relay getting location info back to final device with internet connection back to iCloud but the finder still need to connect to iCloud to view updated location.

“Find My works offline by sending out short range Bluetooth signals from the missing device that can be detected by other Apple devices in use nearby. Those nearby devices then relay the detected location of the missing device to iCloud so users can locate it in the Find My app—all while protecting the privacy and security of all the users involved.”

[izacus]

That's not true at all, Find My network doesn't do meshing.

[godelski]

I really wish a "major" messaging service would adopt something like this, at least as a fallback. Don't give me two apps, give me one. This seems right up the alley for a project like Signal. Like a way to wade yourself into decentralization without necessarily needing to go all the way. Hell, it could save bandwidth just by file transfers alone and certainly it is up there with the mission of privacy.

I think it really will take a bigger platform to make this possible because you need an already existing network. I doubt Apple would ever do it, but hey, I mean text messaging and calls through Airdrop? Pitch it as for emergencies like when the phone lines go down? These are legitimate use cases.

[binary132]

I agree with the general sentiment but I hesitate to rely on any platform being around for a long time. It would be cool if they could interop with other platforms supporting it, though.