[raxxorraxor]

For me it is a sign the the EU construction does simply not work. It is an undemocratic technocracy that is easily lobbied by players pushing for this and I don't feel represented by a parliament where I don't know anyone.

They circumvent the accountability of nation states, it is a development catastrophe since people cannot have a reasonable influence on policies anymore.

[munksbeer]

Nation states are the ones asking for stuff like this. The EU commission focuses on objectives set by the heads of the nation states. The elected EU parliament then votes on the proposals.

The bad thing about the EU is that it opens up views like yours, trying to absolve your own nation of any culpability, when that is just not true.

If you don't like the direction of the EU, vote in a government and MEPs who will steer it in a different direction. If enough people do this, then the EU changes, as happens in every democracy.

What you're seeing is simply democracy in action. You think these things are going against the majority, but the reality is, the majority of citizens are ok for this to happen at the nation state level, and by extension at the EU level.

Stop blaming the EU. It is lazy and makes the problem worse. Look closer to home.

[raxxorraxor]

No, the institutions of the EU allow nation states to push through unpopular legislation, for which they could be held accountable on a national level. At least to a larger degree.

So in this case it is the fault of the EU as well because its structures allow this to happen.

I prefer battling one national government instead of 27.

The EU certainly isn't democracy in action, on the contrary it is highly technocratic. Without the promised proficiency though.

[munksbeer]

You're making the mistake that populations don't want this, when it is largely in the realm of HN or reddit or wherever else nerds hang out. Population polls have repeatedly shown that people want age verification checks and are ok with message scanning "to save the children". Lot's of people are ignorant of the stupidity of this stuff, but that is democracy for you.

You're blaming the EU for something that is the fault of our populations, voting in governments who increasingly push these agendas. You're not helping anything by doing that.

[raxxorraxor]

No, the population is completely in the dark about it because there is no media reporting on it. A real European media doesn't exist. Only people in tech aligned circles even know about these topics at all.

There are no real polls. Any positive poll asks about protecting kids in a populist way or it is framed as something combatting big tech, which is just as dishonest.

But the real numbers will be in if people don't submit any photos or IDs for some flimsy age verification.

Be that as it may, there are also constitutional protection against surveillance, regardless of popular support, which I argue doesn't exist.

[AlecSchueler]

But it works the same at the level of national governments. What's the difference?

[raxxorraxor]

No, national governments are closer to the voting population and can be held accountable more effectively. That just isn't possible for EU institutions, parliament or not. The level of indirection matters.

[AlecSchueler]

And would you be in favour of dissolving the national governments in favour of devolving power to even more local governments that are closer to their populations and even held even more effectively accountable? What's the ideal level of "indirection?"

Where do you draw the line/how do you strike balance? And I'm curious if you have an idea of an alternative for the regular coordination efforts that would be needed for the national/sub national governments in the absence of something like the EU.

[raxxorraxor]

The EU theoretically defines the goal itself in its statutes about subsidiarity.

Your argument doesn't make sense, you cannot just use abstraction to justify building new layers of governance.

I could give you an arbitrary line and say a common language would be the point. It is sensible as well because nobody in the Netherlands knows any politician from Spain and vice versa. On a national level this is not as pronounced.

I don't need coordination efforts about scanning encrypted messages if that is your question.