[Alupis]

> Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism.

This is some "critical theory" nonsense. The real world isn't divided into two camps, "those actively for" and "those actively against". You can, and should, just go about your life.

You'll live a happier, more mentally-healthy life by just ignoring the noise and not getting pulled into some sort of "if you're not with us, you're against us" thing.

Gleam is a language, and just like all languages - be it English, Spanish, C++, Python, musical notes, and more - both agreeable and disagreeable people will use it. It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language. There's no point in even trying - all you succeed in doing is giving yourself mental grief, anxiety and hardship.

Just do your thing...

[lowboy]

> It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language

True, but the message on the website starts with "As a community...", and speaks to participation in the Gleam community, not the usage of Gleam as a language. And participation within a community _can_ be prevented by its stewards.

[Alupis]

I just want to point out, this conversation has been had over and over, on HN, in the Gleam Discord, and I'm sure in many other places as well - always spurred by the same statement on the Gleam website.

So instead of discussing one of the most beautiful programming languages ever created, we're discussing politics, virtues, and wannabe Nazis. Because of a single sentence on the website...

I don't care either way, but it is notable how distracting that seemingly innocuous statement has become.

Could the community goals not be accomplished in a possibly less divisive way? The first part of the community statement seems entirely sufficient to me.

So, while I don't care and will continue to use Gleam regardless, it does seem to me that greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language.

[lowboy]

I haven't seen any of the previous iterations of the conversation, nor have I had a chance to try Gleam (though it is on my short list!).

> greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language

But it might be an important goal for the community.

[Alupis]

I don't believe even a little bit the success of the community has anything to do with this sentence on the website. The success of the community belongs to the relentless hard work of Louis et al.

The sentence is a source of continuous friction between the language, community, and public. It just seems so... unnecessary.

Half of this thread was consumed with people discussing politics and virtues instead of the v1.12 release - that is a pretty large problem for the language, objectively.

When people google Gleam, they'll find pages/discussions like this instead of people discussing the merits of certain syntax or libraries, new features and the like.

There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views.

[lowboy]

Your metrics for community success might be misaligned with those of the community stewards.

There's more room for interpretation in "all backgrounds, genders, and experience levels are welcome and respected equally" than with the explicit stated support for BLM, trans rights, and anti-nazi ideologies. Room for interpretation on codes of conduct make for more moderation work, allowing more undesirable behaviours to crop up.

> There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views

Yes, but that might not be the goals of the Gleam stewards. Maybe they would rather take a moral stance even if it hurts Gleam's reach.

[zdragnar]

But how will you control people if you haven't put them in little boxes first?

[turnsout]

I think it's valuable for the leaders of a community to make it clear what kind of a community they're trying to build. If you think being anti-Nazi is like, "woke nonsense," then you know that the Gleam community is not going to be for you.

Does that prevent a Nazi from using Gleam? No. But the actual objective is to set the tone.