[chickenzzzzu]

I feel like we are already there. That these people are allowed to keep the profits they made through lying and environmental destruction-- ("um well actually compared to generations past we are much greener")-- is the most telling flaw in the system.

They aren't penalized at all for lying, and not lying is a massive loss of potential profit. So then, why not lie, is their logic.

[notJim]

We are much greener though, at least in the West. Climate emissions peaked in Europe and North America in the last few decades (earlier in Europe.) In Europe, forests are growing back, because marginal agricultural land is being returned to forests as yields rise on prime land. I think this is beginning to happen in the US as well.

This doesn't mean climate change isn't a problem, because even with this progress, we're way behind and not moving nearly fast enough. But often it's the green side of the spectrum that's lying by catastrophizing and understating progress, while overstating the severity of what's happening.

It's happening similarly with AI, where the green movement has decided that AI is unacceptable, even though it has a tiny ecological footprint compared to activities like watching Netflix or eating nuts, let alone eating beef or flying on a plane.

[chickenzzzzu]

That's right. So essentially we are in a deadlock where every side says "im only contributing fractionally to the problem", and nobody on Earth really has the full capability of blocking the activities you described from happening, especially not when there is good money to be made (e.g coal mining vs AI vs raising cows)

Doesn't seem like a bright future, but at least AI does have a chance of solving the problem while contributing to it. No other behavior could really say the same.

[notJim]

You're still missing it, we are not in a deadlock. Developed countries are in fact decarbonizing. China too is decarbonizing, though they're behind where the West is, but their goal is to peak their emissions by 2030.

In fact, it's kind of the opposite of what you say—everyone is contributing fractionally to the solution. This is what climate doomers miss.

[chickenzzzzu]

Ok, so your opinion is that in X number of years, we may well hit some new level of decarbonization where we have severely contained or reversed the effects of climate change and so on, thanks to a relatively decentralized cooperation between all countries, even historical bad actors.

My position is that that is all theatre, that even if we do achieve that it will be temporary (nth industrial revolution, nuclear war, etc), and that we will eventually be the cause of our own worldwide collapse-- all while thinking we have control to the very end.

[notJim]

I mean, if you're that fatalistic, why worry about AI (or even climate change) in particular? If we're all just doomed no matter what, you may as well just enjoy what you can from life and not stress too much about any particular development.

[navane]

Oh right change my mindset from despair to joy. Great move, let me just flick the switch.

Why feel sad when can feel happy. Me dummy.

[weebull]

China is not decarbonising. It's emissions are rocketing up.