[farkin88]

Interesting to get a library author's perspective. To be fair, you guys had to deal with the whole ecosystem shift: dual package hazards, CJS/ESM compatibility hell, tooling changes, etc so I can see how ESM would be the bigger story from your perspective.

[franciscop]

I'm a small-ish time author, but it was really painful for a while since we were all dual-publishing in CJS and ESM, which was a mess. At some point some prominent authors decided to go full-ESM, and basically many of us followed suit.

The fetch() change has been big only for the libraries that did need HTTP requests, otherwise it hasn't been such a huge change. Even in those it's been mostly removing some dependencies, which in a couple of cases resulted in me reducing the library size by 90%, but this is still Node.js where that isn't such a huge deal as it'd have been on the frontend.

Now there's an unresolved one, which is the Node.js streams vs WebStreams, and that is currently a HUGE mess. It's a complex topic on its own, but it's made a lot more complex by having two different streaming standards that are hard to match.

[farkin88]

What a dual-publishing nightmare. Someone had to break the stalemate first. 90% size reduction is solid even if Node bundle size isn't as critical. The streams thing sounds messy, though. Two incompatible streaming standards in the same runtime is bound to create headaches.

[bikeshaving]

The fact that CJS/ESM compatibility issues are going away indicates it was always a design choice and never a technical limitation (most CJS format code can consume ESM and vice versa). So much lost time to this problem.

[bakkoting]

It was neither a design choice nor a technical limitation. It was a big complicated thing which necessarily involved fiddly internal work and coordination between relatively isolated groups. It got done when someone (Joyee Cheung) actually made the fairly heroic effort to push through all of that.

Joyee has a nice post going into details. Reading this gives a much more accurate picture of why things do and don't happen in big projects like Node: https://joyeecheung.github.io/blog/2024/03/18/require-esm-in...

[Chyzwar]

Node.js made many decisions that have massive impact on ESM adoption. From forcing extensions and dropping index.js to loaders and complicated package.json "exports". In addition to node.js steamrolling everyone, tc39 keep making are idiotic changes to spec like `deffered import` and `with` syntax changes.

[WorldMaker]

Requiring file extensions and not supporting automatic "index" imports was a requirement from Browsers where you can't just scan a file system and people would be rightfully upset if their browser modules sent 4-10 HEAD requests to find the file it was looking for.

"exports" controls in package.json was something package/library authors had been asking for for a long time even under CJS regimes. ESM gets a lot of blame for the complexity of "exports", because ESM packages were required to use it but CJS was allowed to be optional and grandfathered, but most of the complexity in the format was entirely due to CJS complexity and Node trying to support all the "exports" options already in the wild in CJS packages. Because "barrel" modules (modules full of just `export thing from './thing.js'`) are so much easier to write in ESM I've yet to see an ESM-only project with a complicated "exports". ("exports" is allowed to be as simple as the old main field, just an "index.js", which can just be an easily written "barrel" module).

> tc39 keep making are idiotic changes to spec like `deffered import` and `with` syntax changes

I'm holding judgment on deferred imports until I figure out what use cases it solves, but `with` has been a great addition to `import`. I remember the bad old days of crazy string syntaxes embedded in module names in AMD loaders and Webpack (like the bang delimited nonsense of `json!embed!some-file.json` and `postcss!style-loader!css!sass!some-file.scss`) and how hard it was to debug them at times and how much they tied you to very specific file loaders (clogging your AMD config forever, or locking you to specific versions of Webpack for fear of an upgrade breaking your loader stack). Something like `import someJson from 'some-file.json' with { type: 'json', webpackEmbed: true }` is such a huge improvement over that alone. The fact that it is also a single syntax that looks mostly like normal JS objects for other very useful metadata attribute tools like bringing integrity checks to ESM imports without an importmap is also great.

[bikeshaving]

You're right. It wasn't a design choice or technical limitation, but a troubling third thing: certain contributors consistently spreading misinformation about ESM being inherently async (when it's only conditionally async), and creating a hostile environment that “drove contributors away” from ESM work - as the implementer themselves described.

Today, no one will defend ERR_REQUIRE_ESM as good design, but it persisted for 5 years despite working solutions since 2019. The systematic misinformation in docs and discussions combined with the chilling of conversations suggests coordinated resistance (“offline conversations”). I suspect the real reason for why “things do and don’t happen” is competition from Bun/Deno.

[tracker1]

There were some legitimate technical decisions, that said, imho, Node should have just stayed compatible with Babel's implementation and there would have been significantly less friction along the way. It was definitely a choice not to do so, for better and worse.

It's interesting to see how many ideas are being taken from Deno's implementations as Deno increases Node interoperability. I still like Deno more for most things.

[stevage]

I maintain a library also, and the shift to ESM was incredibly painful, because you still have to ship CJS, only now you have work out how to write the code in a way that can be bundled either way, can be tested, etc etc.

[8n4vidtmkvmk]

It was a pain, but rollup can export both if you write the source in esm. The part I find most annoying is exporting the typescript types. There's no tree-shaking for that!

[franciscop]

For simple projects you needed now to add rollup or other build system that didn't have or need it before. For complex systems (with non-trivial exports), now you have a mess since it wouldn't work straight away.

Now with ESM if you write plain JS it works again. If you use Bun, it also works with TS straight away.

[tracker1]

This is where I actually appreciated Deno's start with a clean break from npm, and later in pushing jsr. I'm mixed on how much of Node has come into Deno, however.