[makeitdouble]

> well-designed car-oriented city

Might be true, but at this point it's an utopian level of fantasy. We spent more than a century with cars in old cities, new cities, smaller ones bigger ones.

The only proven results we've had is reducing cars solveany problems at once.

[cyberax]

The only proven result is the prosperity in the US, that started to ebb once the economic forces started concentrating people into the larger cities.