[aDyslecticCrow]

Most of your commute through a city is turning, accelerating and waiting in traffic. 30km/h or 50km/h makes every little difference in your commute times.

When getting on a larger road with less twists and turns, the speed is higher and the gains of the speed is higher; but the danger is also lower. Any road that may stop to wait for a turn or red light, could probably be capped to 30km/h without much cost to your precious commute time.

[YZF]

I have a few km getting out of my city to the highway as part of my commute and then quite a few kms in the city I'm commuting to. This is a pretty typical North American experience (I'm in the Greater Vancouver area). There is no realistic transit option, my 30 minute car drive would be 2 hours on transit each way.

So let's say 10km (might be a bit more) in city traffic. 12 minutes of my commute each way [EDIT: impacted by speed limit, not counting lights, corners etc.] Total 24 minutes. That would turn into 20 minutes each way, total 40 minutes. Huge difference.

Most of this "city" driving is in streets that are plenty wide (sometimes 3 lanes each way with a separation between directions) and have minimal to no pedestrian traffic. On the smaller streets you're probably not doing 50 anyways even if that's the limit since it will feel too fast.

Vancouver has been looking at reducing speed in the city to 30km/hr. It's hard to say if it will reduce traffic deaths (maybe?) but it's going to have some pretty negative economic effects IMO. Some of the smaller streets are 30 anyways. There are probably smarter solutions but city and road planners don't seem to be able to find them.

I'm willing to bet Helsinki is denser and has much better transit.

[aDyslecticCrow]

Yes i don't doubt your estimates for Vancouver. European cities are built very differently (partially because of historical streets being later adapted for motor-vehicles). What i consider city driving, 50km/h or above would be probably be considered suicidal with the amount of merging, turning, and red lights. And the density is higher at that.

Three lanes either way i consider a real motorway. I don't think I've seen a much larger road in Sweden or Finland myself. These roads would clearly not be capped to 30km/h like discussed in this article. (more likely I've seen is 80-90km/h near the city with a lot of merging traffic, and 100-120 outside).

I think the easiest way to visualize what kind of city it is, is to consider that any road with red-light, walkway/bikeway by the side, roundabouts, or without side-barried or trench to be a "city road" and capped at 30km/h. Which is not unreasonable, and unlikely to affect commute by much, as you generally navigate to the nearest larger road, travel by that, and then merge back into the city. (and this is most roads in the city by distance or area)

as a European looking at an american city, they feel like playing sim-city but not finding the "small road" option. And slapping red-lights, stores, and crossings om roads that no human should be near.

[YZF]

Here is Marine Drive in Vancouver: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ThnKn7PmD8sKSnNs5

Speed limit 50km/h ... It has lights and intersections. Almost no pedestrians.

Vancouver has many wide multi-lane streets. Some in denser areas with more pedestrian traffic some less. It has almost no real highways going to the city.

[alexanderchr]

Agreed that it makes no sense to restrict that kind of road to 30km/h, but to be fair most cities that have moved to 30km/h would have excluded that road. Even Amsterdam left the main throughfares at 50km/h: https://www.amsterdam.nl/30-km-u-in-de-stad/

[aDyslecticCrow]

yes. I feel like European cities makes greater distinction between "large road" and "small road". A road this wide and open would have barriers, trenches, and road-exit lanes rather a red light.

I took a jump around with google maps for an example; https://maps.app.goo.gl/1qgPoM35RCjxLR2d9. This is the E12 road through Helsinki. It would be considered a major road that connects Helsinki to the rest of the country. Barriers, trenches, an underpass for pedestrians to cross to the other side, overpasses and merge lanes to leave the road or turn around. This road is capped to 80km/h since its near to the city, but would likely rise to 100-120km/h when there are less mergers.

Leaving this "major road" quickly gets you into more normal larger city roads like this; https://maps.app.goo.gl/dP5FiMAPcXn3xMiH7. Driving 50km/h on this kind of road can be suicidal in sections (seems like 40km/h is the speed limit on the google maps images), and most your time is spent navigating a-lot of other cars, red-lights and turns.

1 more turn, and you're in the 80% of city roads; https://maps.app.goo.gl/HELXkV9xjmLyf5Q77. Drive 50 at your own peril (that's 2 way road with parked cars, and very typical)

When the article discusses "30km/h for city roads", this is closer to what you should visualize compared to the Vancouver road. The style of road you show would be a weird limbo between too large to be safe for pedestrians, but still used as a minor road for some reason.

[YZF]

The E12 looks like a proper highway that in many places would be at least 90km/hr (possibly a variable speed limit depending on the amount of traffic).

Here's another local example, Granville Street, which is also 3 lanes but definitely denser/busier: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4X6RRVKUFKNoFA248

What tends to happen in practice is that people here drive faster than the speed limit on some of these, e.g. both my examples I would say 70km/hr is a lot more common than the actual 50km/hr speed. On smaller streets, lessay: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5AaW7FgiuK5ti6sy6 you would typically go slower than the limit, especially if there are more cars parked, or pedestrians present or more traffic. In some of the smaller streets traffic can't even pass both ways when there are cars parked and people alternate the right of way.

I tend to think of speed limits as a way to fine drivers rather than a true safety thing. If you want people to drive slower you need to create the conditions that will make them drive slower. In many small streets that tends to be speed bumps (which I don't like) but there are other solutions. You want the speed to feel natural to the drivers, i.e. that most reasonable people would drive that speed in order to be able to respond to what they predict might happen.

Reducing speed limits feels like a cop out. A better solution includes better thinking about city design, roads, and transit. Reducing the speed limit is unlikely (at least around these parts) to actually result in people driving slower.