[WHA8m]

Same here: I agree. On the other hand, it's a pest upon humankind that we can't leave public spaces clean and respect public property. We need money to pay people to make nice things, because apparently there is no critical mass that cares about the community. It's always individuals that burden it on their shoulders. And that's obviously not sufficient. Solution: money. Yeah, I hate it too.

[ryandrake]

> On the other hand, it's a pest upon humankind that we can't leave public spaces clean and respect public property.

Toxic individualism and an intolerance towards collective ownership is killing community. We should not blame humankind on a problem easily solvable by hiring a few people to clean and fix things. Somehow, this (the public bearing any cost whatsoever to have and maintain high quality public property) has become unacceptable to the public!

[Krasnol]

It didn't become unacceptable. The general public does pay already.

What becomes more and more unacceptable is the way those who already have a lot avoid to participate in this collective maintenance.

Besides that, there are things you can't solve with money. Sure you can sand "a few people" to clean up a place but the fact that people didn't use the trash bins (if the community was able to afford some) won't go away. It will create more and more costs while the collective money to patch over this will get less and less.

There will be a point when it snaps and some will be surprised it did because their bubble was kept clean all the time. They paid extra for it and your kids are not allowed on the loan.

[Krasnol]

Both hang together.

We've been educated for selfishness.

[WHA8m]

I see that they come as a bundle. But I am not so sure about "educated". You yourself hinted that it's inherent to humankind. People have been "educated" in several different ways all across the globe and I wouldn't know where to look to see a difference.

[Krasnol]

You need to be greedy and selfish to be really successful in this system and being successful in our system begins in school and ends at your workplace where it spoken out loudly and clearly for you to learn. If you are successful, you can buy more things for yourself. Maybe even a few things others not only, don't have, things they might not be able to get at all because they're unique. You don't even have to do anything with those things. Just put them in storage and let them generate you even more money so you can buy even more things.

As someone who grew up under Socialism, this system we have here in the West is a paradise and hell in one.