[VikingMiner]

> In reality, this wouldn’t happen, because, generally, people understand that stabbings are a cultural issue, rather than a technical one

Many UK MPs don't understand this. I've heard of MPs making (moronic) suggestions such as selling kitchen knives without the point on it. I've literally seen this advertised as a solution on the news.

For whatever reason they don't seem to understand that literally anyone can make a shiv.

[arp242]

"We believe that paedophiles are using an area of internet the size of Ireland, and through this they can control keyboards." – Syd Rapson MP in 2001.

But really, with 650 MPs there's bound to be a few that are a bit silly at least some of the time. You can hear some wild takes at the local pub too (or nextdoor), but that doesn't mean everyone in your area is a moron.

[VikingMiner]

I too have watched Brass Eye, and they literally had MPs telling people about the dangers of "cake" in a previous episode. It showed that MPs and TV celebrities would literally say anything Anchorman style if it was put on a teleprompter / script in front of them. They are nothing other than paid actors.

While I don't believe everyone in Parliament is a moron. I think more than enough of them are moronic, out of touch, malicious or home combination of the three for it to be a problem.

Generally the only solution presented for any issue in the UK is banning something. There is no other course of action that they can envisage. So you end up in a false dichotomy, discussing whether something should be banned or not. There is no discussion why the issue is happening in the first place, only whether <thing> should be banned or not.

[arp242]

Some journalist shows up with a somewhat implausible story and can tell any lie to convince you it's real. I can see how an MP might fall for it, and it's a mistake to think you're somehow above that. We also don't see any of the false positives; did they go "MP shopping" and we only saw the ones that did fall for it?

[fidotron]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2019/03/14/yes-a-poli...

For anyone doubting the veracity of that.

[tzs]

I would love it if my steak knives did not have a point. Never once have I needed to stab my steak. The only thing I’ve ever stabbed with them is myself by accident.

[exasperaited]

> I've heard of MPs making (moronic) suggestions such as selling kitchen knives without the point on it. I've literally seen this advertised as a solution on the news.

As someone who is clumsy and easily distracted, I have such a kitchen knife. They are commonly available. It works absolutely fine and it has three times minimised an injury that would have been nasty because I am an easily-distracted tired old idiot.

The point of a knife is only needed in a handful of kitchen applications. Most knives do not need to be able to stab at all. Only cut.

And combined with rules on the sales of longer blades that do have a point, this idea could genuinely be part of reducing knife crime (especially among the very youngest).

Because it does reduce access to knives that would be useful for stabbing, and it reduces the severity of injuries caused by the youngest in knife crime incidents. Without meaningfully affecting the kitchen usefulness of most small blades at all.

If I go to a supermarket and buy a long enough knife with a point on it, in theory I am asked to prove my age (in practice they laugh at the idea that I might not be young enough). The same is true for many (not all) products on Amazon, in fact.

The knife without a point on it did not trigger age verification. Nor does a boxcutter type thing, in practice; only retractible blades that don't snap off are on the list, AFAIK. (And only flick-knife-type mechanisms are banned).

I anticipate being downvoted for simply writing about this, but harm reduction through knife sales controls is not something that just stupid MPs think: it is supported by expert opinion.

Knife crime in the UK is a problem. It is still not a problem as severe per-capita as it is elsewhere, but we are trying measures to dissuade it.

Behaviour modification is not always stupid or evil; cultures do it all the time.

[AngryData]

A tipless knife may prevent accidents, but if you purposefully tried to stab yourself or someone else with one of those knives, do you honestly believe it wouldn't tear right through your flesh? Neither my butter knives or bread knives have tips, and yet I could easily stab people with them.

[exasperaited]

FWIW the data suggests that thin cotton clothing can stop these knives much more effectively, and therefore could at least make impulse knife crime (indoor assaults) much, much less deadly.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rounded-knif...

Let's Be Blunt have more data: https://www.letsbeblunt.co.uk

[AngryData]

I don't really find anything in those sources convincing. One is a researcher for an anti-knife crime advocacy group that makes vague statements about how it will reduce injuries, but don't specify how much, and says their research still needs to be validated before publishing. And the other stuff is just statistics of how many people get stabbed with kitchen knifes with the assumption that if everyone had blunt knives instead that either less people would be stabbed or their stab wounds would not be so serious, which is the point I find suspect to start with.

Yes if you wear enough cloth it can block blunt stabs okay, but I very much doubt peoples regular clothes are going to do anything except drag some dirty cloth into the wound unless they walk around with thick work bibs on all the time or 3-4 layers of denim. And even that is still very limited protection to someone actively trying to stab through it. A screwdriver is even more blunt than these blunted knives and it would have no problem going through any clothes except maybe a reenactors linen gambeson.

[danaris]

> The point of a knife is only needed in a handful of kitchen applications. Most knives do not need to be able to stab at all. Only cut.

But this isn't about what "most knives" need to be able to do.

This is about what everyone in the UK will be permitted to buy.

"I don't need to do X often, so why should I worry about it?" is a really, really bad attitude to take when your government is considering banning X for the entire country.

[exasperaited]

No, it's not. At all!

It's about what everyone not old enough will be permitted to buy.

Nobody is saying that pointed knives shouldn't be sold; they are saying two things:

1) children shouldn't be able to buy them (they can't)

2) behaviour modification might suggest that fewer such knives even have to be made, because they aren't as important as they seem, and that might keep more convenient knives out of the hands of very young misguided children

The law has created a situation where I as an adult can:

1) buy a pointed knife if it looks like I am an adult (or it doesn't and I can prove I am)

2) buy a non-pointed knife without proving it.

This seems acceptable to me. I expect to be downvoted without a meaningful reply for saying so, because that is the way of things here.

I appreciate your policing my attitude but I don't know where you get the complete nonsense that the government is considering banning X for the entire country for this X or any other. Because they are not.

We in Europe try not to assume that Marjorie Taylor-Greene speaks for all Americans. There are 650 MPs in the UK Parliament, and some of them are silly or misinformed. One or two are as stupid as she is. Try to take that in.

[VikingMiner]

[flagged]

[dang]

> You are believing in the same stupid delusion

Please edit out such swipes from your comments. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

[VikingMiner]

It isn't a swipe. He is literally engaging in the same thinking. What else am I supposed to say?

[dang]

You'd supposed to not tell people they're believing in stupid delusions. That's just name-calling, in the sense that the site guidelines ask you not to do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[AndyGravity]

The poster thinks that knife crime can be reduced by making knives not pointy. An idea that is rightfully mocked by anyone with two brain cells to rub together. It is ridiculous on the face of it. Anyone believes in it is believing in something ridiculous. Believing in things that are obviously ridiculous is delusional. Therefore it is not name calling. It is a statement of fact.

Repeatedly sending someone a link to the rules do not in anyway stop this from being a statement of fact.

[exasperaited]

[flagged]

[dang]

Yikes - you crossed badly into personal attack here. That's not ok, regardless of what other commenters are doing.

Could you please review the site guidleines and stick to them when commenting? We'd appreciate it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[crtasm]

Then what's the proper tool for cutting fruit or veg? I can't think of one.

[exasperaited]

I have a small-ish flat-cut paring knife that has a non-pointed blade. It is very sharp, and even the squared off end is enough to pierce a tomato, say.

I can't think of any application where the point of the knive is particularly essential for fruit or veg, and I can think of several veg where using the point of a tool is actually quite likely to cause an accident. Sweet potato being one of them.

There is one true application: deboning or filleting. But most people simply don't do this in a kitchen anyway, because they are buying deboned and filleted meat.

I don't see a particular problem with asking people who do want to cook to that level to prove they are adults before buying knives that have such obvious dual use as a weapon. Because you're asking people who already know they should be responsible with knives (and not for example use kitchen knives to get into plastic packaging, like an idiot).

You really don't need the point of a kitchen knife all that much in a kitchen, and the fact that the counterexamples raised are misuse (stabbing into packaging etc.) is pretty illustrative.

[VikingMiner]

Seriously?

A "vegetable knife".

e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Genware-NEV-K-V4R-Vegetable-Knife-R...

[exasperaited]

You could use this, yes. And buy it, as an adult. I have not suggested you could not. (I just don't think the point is necessary, myself, and I am glad of options without it)

But you quite possibly cannot buy it on Amazon or in any UK shop already without proving you are an adult if your age is in doubt. Do you have a problem with their terms on that page?

"Age Verification Required on Delivery: This product is not for sale to people under the age of 18. To confirm the recipient is over 18 years, valid photographic ID with a date of birth may be required upon delivery. The driver will input your year of birth into their device and may then require an ID check to complete the age verification process. The driver will not be able to access your information once the delivery is complete."

(The "may" here is crucial. I've never been asked to prove I am an adult this way either, because I look like one)

[crtasm]

Yes that's a knife, the suggestion was that a knife is not the proper tool for the job... somehow.

[VikingMiner]

[flagged]

[exasperaited]

I didn't say that at all. You've totally the legal right to use knives in a dangerous way in your home.

It's completely compatible with age restrictions on long pointed blades, though, isn't it?