[wolf550e]

There have been Jews in Jerusalem, even a majority of Jews, in Ottoman times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusal...

The Jews of Morocco (or Baghdad, or Tehran) can't go back. For that matter, surviving Polish Jews were chased out of Poland after WWII. Most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and most Israeli Jews don't have a 2nd passport.

And, of course, people have a right to self determination. Jews don't have to beg to be allowed to live as dhimmi or as a minority in Europe.

One people from the middle east managed to actually decolonize their tiny piece of land from the Arabs, and people have lost their minds. Every minority in the middle east is under attack (Kurds, Druze, Christians, etc.), and Westerners always side with the Arab colonizers.

[slt2021]

I love that you brought up right to self-determination.

However it comes with the bundle with all human rights and international laws, including Prohibion on forced displacement (like Nakhba), full recognition of Human Rights (apartheid state), territorial integrity (settlements), prohibion on genocide (ICC/ICJ is awaiting trial)

The international law has been settled on this: Two state solution, 1967 borders, full rights to Palestinian state, etc.

[wolf550e]

The vast majority of Israelis wanted the Palestinians to have a state. That's why Barak, Sharon and Olmert were elected. Israel tried twice to negotiate for a Palestinian state, and once gave the Palestinians Gaza unilaterally. The Palestinian leadership did not agree both times, and we have seen what they did with Gaza since 2005.

The problem is that the goal of the Palestinians is not a Palestinian state, it's to ensure that the Jews don't have a state. Otherwise they would have gotten a state in 1947. Except that the Palestinians didn't exist as a polity in 1947, and the West Bank was claimed by Jordan until 1988. The PLO was established in 1964, not to free the West Bank from Jordan, but to undo the 1948 war.

There is no Palestinian opposition that says not agreeing then was a mistake and they should have taken the offer (e.g. in 2008).

The main issue is not that some Palestinians are under the rule of horrible leaders like Hamas, the problem is that Hamas is the most popular party. The Palestinians completely support the goal of undoing the establishment of Israel. And apparently are mostly ok with the principle that it doesn't matter how many lives it costs, as long as Muslim land is freed, i.e. no sovereign Jews.

Basically, Israel has peaceniks and leftists, and even right wing governments were very willing to give land for peace, believing in the two state solution. The Palestinians have never had any peaceniks. The Israeli peace camp was badly wounded by the second intifada and it seems completely killed by October 7th.

[dlubarov]

> prohibion on genocide (ICC/ICJ is awaiting trial)

ICC is not pursuing any genocide charges. Khan initially sought a charge of extermination, but it was rejected by the pre-trial chamber.