[saubeidl]

Is the US democratic by any sensible nature? Their president, too, is appointed by electors.

Is there any democratic power by your standards? You are moving the goal posts so far I don't think anything fits your narrow definition.

[geertj]

> Their president, too, is appointed by electors.

While there have been a tiny numbers of faithless electors in the past, they have never influenced the outcome of a presidential election. Furthermore, about 80% of electors are from states that have laws that require their electors to vote for the candidate who wins the state's popular vote.

[saubeidl]

Nonetheless, they are who are elected, not the president. The president is then appointed by said electors.

[andrepd]

That's just ridiculous. The US president is directly elected by the people, modulo the weirdness of state-level FPTP. Flawed as the electoral college is, there's no comparison whatsoever.

[saubeidl]

The electoral college is directly elected, the president is appointed. It is the same level of indirection.

[andrepd]

The electoral college is a rubber stamp of the popular vote (per state). The commission is selected by the member-states governments with no electoral input. You cannot be making this argument in good faith...

[saubeidl]

The member-states governments are elected by popular vote, per state, just as electors are. It is the same level of indirection, whichever way you try to reframe it.

[andrepd]

There's no way you're seriously making this argument. I don't know what else to say except repeat myself.

The US electoral college is an historical artifact that simply rubber stamps the votes of the States. The member states' heads of government make the decision themselves! The equivalent would be the electoral college simply voting for the president themselves.

Jesus christ.

[saubeidl]

> The equivalent would be the electoral college simply voting for the president themselves.

That is... exactly what they are doing?

[thyristan]

Switzerland is certainly democratic, because voters can directly vote for laws. Some countries and states do have provisions to that effect, but with more restrictions and less often used.

The US is actually more democratic than e.g. Germany, because the president is elected by the people (though indirectly), not by parliament. Therefore a political oligarchy could be prevented, because the majority in parliament and the president can check on each other, and the president is more accountable to the voters than to parliament.

Generally there is a sliding scale of course, but the less directly officials are elected, the less democratic a country is. A common example would be a soviet (engl. "council") republic, which isn't considered democratic at all, even though it has tons of elections: Each factory/town/village elects a local workers's council, which in turn elects a county council, which elects a regional council, which elects a state council, which elects a national council, which elects the council of ministers, which elects the chairman. Tons of filters that make absolutely certain that the will of the party and state always supercedes the will of the people.

[josefx]

> The US is actually more democratic than e.g. Germany, because the president is elected by the people

The German president is mainly a figurehead with limited power. The office was stripped down after WWII.

The real power lies with the ministers, who can issue absolute orders that have to be obeyed without question. One of many results is that German prosecutors cannot be trusted with issuing EU wide arrest warrants and had the ability stripped from them the moment it was challenged in court.

[thyristan]

I was comparing the USian president to the German chancellor. Both head up the government made up of ministers they appoint. It's only the name that is different, and the order in protocol. The USian president is first and head of state in protocol order, the German chancellor is third after the German federal president and the president of the Bundestag (one chamber of parliament).

Sorry for my being imprecise here, Germans tend to skip their own president(s) because, as you correctly state, they are mostly unimportant figureheads.