[robomartin]

And, when you finally succeed, some asshole will tell you that you didn't actually build your business. That your success isn't due to having worked hard (because there are tons of people that work hard) or because you are smart (because lots of people are smart). No, you had nothing to do with building a successful business despite your sacrifices, risk, uncertainty, sleepless nights, good and bad decisions, family sacrifices, etc., etc. You don't matter.

[thaumaturgy]

This comment has absolutely no place in this thread. This wasn't the appropriate place to inject your politics.

[MBCook]

I don't know, it seems fitting to me. If you ignore the current political mess surrounding that (out of context) statement, it's still true.

If you reach any kind of success, you'll find people who will say it wasn't you. You got rich off of someone else's work. You had it all handed to you. Or the most common of all, you got lucky.

It doesn't matter that you worked hard, or studied, or failed 50 times before. You were in the right place at the right time, and that's why you're making so much money. It was only because of the cosmic lottery that they, sitting around and not doing much, didn't become the rich person.

[kamaal]

Not that I disagree with you.

But some people do as a matter of fact get rich by being at the right place at the right time.

Just like how not all hardworking people are successful. Not all successful people are hardworking. The simplest example I can give you is to be born in a rich family.

That's certainly a cosmic lottery.

[flyinRyan]

>It doesn't matter that you worked hard, or studied, or failed 50 times before. You were in the right place at the right time, and that's why you're making so much money.

It's not that it doesn't matter, it's just that hard work isn't enough. Luck does play a big role.

Of course people who come in and try to tell you that it had nothing to do what you did are jerks, but people on the other side try to say that it was all them and had nothing to do with luck (usually right before they blast poor people for not "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps").

[petercooper]

Who would actually say that? Sounds like you've had some experience of this.

A lot of conservatives misinterpreted something Obama said as meaning much of what you've said, even though if one reads the entire paragraph, the "that" in his sentence was infrastructure such as the Internet, roads and bridges.

[anamax]

Not so fast.

No one questions that other people built roads etc. (Govt didn't provide the resources - it only collected them.)

The only way that Obama's comment is not a non sequitur is if he meant more than that, that people who "built" were treated differently than the people who didn't wrt those resources.

I get that you think that Obama should be given the benefit of the doubt, but don't other people get that same benefit?

For example, one of the most common sentiments expressed to people trying to concieve is "you've got to keep a positive mental outlook", the implication being that a negative mental outlook reduces the odds of conception. I have no idea whether or not mental outlook has that effect but we're damning a US senate candidate who said that it did.

[ktizo]

I have no idea whether or not mental outlook has that effect but we're damning a US senate candidate who said that it did.

I don't think that was quite what he said, if you are referring to Tod Akin.

[anamax]

>> I have no idea whether or not mental outlook has that effect but we're damning a US senate candidate who said that it did.

> I don't think that was quite what he said, if you are referring to Tod Akin.

Actually, it was. He said that women who were raped were less likely to concieve. He didn't specify the mechanism, but mental state is the only plausible candidate.

Like I said, a huge fraction of the population believes that mental state affects conception. Moreover, I'll bet that I can find at least one law protecting women that was enacted based, at least partly, on that theory.

Or, do you want to argue that how he said it matters?

Or, do you want to argue that the mental distress associated with rape has different effects than other mental distress?

It was a monumentally stupid thing to say, but not because of the scientific truth or lack thereof.

And, if a Democrat had said it, it wouldn't have been an issue and you'd have defended said Democrat. See, for example, the near-daily gaffes of VP Biden. Or, Obama's "you didn't build that".

[ktizo]

Wow. You are one insane waste of skin.

By the way, I am neither republican, or democrat, or american for that matter. I just am fascinated by american politics, in much the same way that some people are fascinated by particularly gruesome car crashes.

[anamax]

> Wow. You are one insane waste of skin.

I note that you didn't point out any errors that I made.

FWIW, I'm pro-abortion.

[MBCook]

There are people out there who are convinced that everything is because of external forces.

They'll tell you your successful because you got lucky somehow (lottery of an idea, picked for a promotion, right place right time, etc). It wasn't because of something you did.

Likewise, their situation is usually because of external forces as well. Their boss doesn't like them, they didn't get hired for that good job because of X, they couldn't go to/finish/get good grades in school because of Y.

It's really kind of sad to see in person.

[robomartin]

Even if "that" refers to infrastructure, he would be dead wrong.

First of all, infrastructure is not built for a particular business or businesses. It's was built --with a HUGE emphasis on "was"-- because it was identified as a necessity for progress and other factors. Most roads in the US were built decades ago. The project started in 1956. It's interesting to read the "Financing" section on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

This and the railroads were not built for any particular business but rather for reasons spanning from national defense to, yes, economic growth. The system was paid for and is being paid for by everyone in some form or another and everyone benefits from this.

Obama's statement, to paraphrase, went something like: "If you have a business...and are successful...you didn't build that". Some argue, probably correctly, that he was referring to infrastructure rather than the business itself.

In isolation that might be the case. But there was more. He also said a few things to the tune of, again, paraphrasing: "if you are successful...it isn't because you work hard or you are smart...lots of people are smart and work hard". And, right after that, he wen't into the "you didn't build that" paragraph. The implication is that your success is due to, in large part, to government.

I would argue that unscripted comments like this one tend to reveal how someone thinks. And the not-surprising revelation in this case is that Obama has deep socialists beliefs. How else would you even consider the idea of equating the success of any business TODAY with the construction of infrastructure DECADES AGO? You have to construct a certain model of reality before you'd even utter such words. Someone like myself, an entrepreneur through and through, would never, ever, even consider saying something like that. Government has never been the source of my success or failure.

His statement is like arguing that a fellow launching a web development business today owes his success to government because the desk he bought was shipped via railroad and the highway system. That statement would be deemed ridiculous to a ten year old, much less intelligent adults.

Yes, infrastructure benefits everyone. Millions of people use (and pay for it) every day to conduct their lives. Not one person owes their success to infrastructure alone. Once in place it is deemed a given. Infrastructure was a natural side effect of the exploration and expansion that took place in this continent. Today, there's far more that goes into becoming successful in life privately and in business than the pre-existing infrastructure.

There's a reverse side to this argument. If government is the source of my and your success because it built infrastructure (that we paid for). Then, they ought to also be responsible for my and your failures. You can't have it both ways. The infrastructure in Los Angeles, as an example, is in a dire state of disrepair. Just drive on the 405 or 5 Freeways --to name a couple-- and you'll know what I mean. I have not seen government make a concerted effort to really maintain and repair these roads in probably twenty years. I used to drive sports cars with stiff suspensions. Your bones would rattle when going over these roads. In sharp contrast to this, the last time I was in Munich, the Autobahn felt as smooth as a billiards table.

So, if government is responsible for your an my success then it is also responsible for your and my failures. I don't mean this seriously. It's a ridiculous argument, of course. Just as dumb and ridiculous as Obama's claim that businesses owe their success to "the collective".

If you built a country, and were successful, you didn't build that! It was the Spanish with their ships and all of their national infrastructure that enabled you to be able to have a successful country and, yes, enabled that guy today to open a taco stand and experience success. Ridiculous.

[diek]

A few logical issues... the Interstate Highway System is an ongoing investment. It may have started in 1956, but it requires constant upkeep which, as you pointed out, is covered by taxes.

The fellow you mention launching a web development business today may not owe his success to government because his desk was shipped using infrastructure, but he does owe his success (in part) to the research investment that created ARPAnet.

Also, if you're hiring for a technology business, you're relying on the network of universities across the country to produce competent graduates. You also depend on taxes you pay for police, fire department, and the military to maintain a rule of law that enables your business to exist.

[robomartin]

All of these things are requirements dor a modern society. They are used by everyone. Entrepreneurs and businesses are just one class of users.

If you travelled in time back to the 1500's you would use whatever infrastructure in place wherever you land. It isn't any different today.

The government didn't create the Internet as we know it today. Yes ARPAnet was the genesis of what eventually became the modern Internet. Private entrepreneurs investing massively in both time and money carved out the the modern Internet.

The modern Internet would have happened without ARPAnet. Services such as Compuserve and a myriad of BBS's were already carving out that space. France had an Internet-like system before the Internet. As things happened the modern Internet evolved from ARPAnet, but I do not, for one second, subscribe to the idea that we owe the modern Internet to the US government. And much less so that the aforementioned web designer has anything to thank the US government for.

We elect officials to run the country, uphold laws and provide agreed-upon services. And we all pay for the cost of those services (dearly, I might add). Everyone benefits from this. That businesses spring up and use the available infrastructure is only natural. To propose that businesses somehow owe government for the existing infrastructure is preposterous. Part of the political game is, of course, to pander to the unions, which are very receptive to these kinds of messages.

Does Apple owe its success to the Chinese government for putting into place the infrastructure that allowed them to bring the iPhone to market? I don't think so. Apple used the best infrastructure it could find in order to meet their goals. If the Chinese didn't have it they would have gone elsewhere.

Do we, then, also blame the US government for not building the infrastructure necessary to compete with China and keep millions of jobs in the US? Of course not. But you can't play it both ways. If the government is the source of our success and achievements then they also get to own our monumental failures. Examples of this abound: The destruction of the light aircraft industry due to regulations and litigation; the destruction of the automobile industry due to unions; the destruction of our financial well-being as a nation due to over-spending, unnecessary wars, government unions, ridiculous pensions, entitlement programs and, in general crappy partisan thinking on all sides.

As degenerate and incompetent as our government has become I fail to see how anyone can think that they can be or are the source of anyone's success unless you work for a union. Today I heard on the radio that sa government worker is retiring with a pay of $301,000 pension FOR LIFE. Yes, that guy owes his success to government as I can almost guarantee you that he did nothing to have earned or deserved that pay.

[mquander]

Don't you think it's ridiculous that you've picked a guy earning a government pension at $301k a year and you're castigating him, when there are loads of people in the private sector earning up to tens or hundreds of times more than that? You could find people on Hacker News that make that much writing iPhone apps where people pay to click on pigs, or who figure out new ways to make ads harder to avoid.

Are you really going to assert that the private sector workers are all "earning" that money in some way that the government worker in question cannot possibly be? How do you know?

Why do you feel so strongly that this guy with a pension must be screwing you, but not the far more numerous, far richer people in our world?

[kamaal]

>Why do you feel so strongly that this guy with a pension must be screwing you, but not the far more numerous, far richer people in our world?

Its not that worker, but that system in which that worker is employed which is the problem. It encourages a behaviors where hardworking are supposed to pay up and carry everybody else's burden. Sooner or later that kills the whole system.

There are somethings that you need to think about his statement- Which is-

>Today I heard on the radio that sa government worker is retiring with a pay of $301,000 pension FOR LIFE. Yes, that guy owes his success to government as I can almost guarantee you that he did nothing to have earned or deserved that pay.

Right there you see what he is trying to point out. Among all people who are retiring. Some might be exceptionally good performers, some exceptionally bad, some mediocre. But all are paid equally. This directly means some of them are paying up and working for others.

Next you say:

>>Don't you think it's ridiculous that you've picked a guy earning a government pension at $301k a year and you're castigating him, when there are loads of people in the private sector earning up to tens or hundreds of times more than that?

If they are making it from their work, its theirs. That's totally different than the pension argument which I mentioned earlier, where a few people pay for everybody else. Thereby there is no incentive for actual hard workers to do their work as they want. Why the hell should anybody work so hard ultimately only to find he and the guy who did absolutely did no work at all get the same rewards?

>>You could find people on Hacker News that make that much writing iPhone apps where people pay to click on pigs, or who figure out new ways to make ads harder to avoid.

You can't decide others taste on what they consider valuable.

[javert]

That is a lie. The "that" is business. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. I just looked up the speech.

[ktizo]

Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

I just looked up the speech as well. The 'that' would seem to be referring to the 'somebody' who built infrastructure. You could read it the other way I suppose, but only if you thought it was a separate statement meant to stand apart from the rest of the paragraph that is enclosing it, which wouldn't make much sense.

[javert]

As I said, I looked up the speech (again - just to make sure - as I had already looked it up before), and taken in full context, I think me means that if you have a business, you didn't build that business.

His actual, broader point is that you can't take credit for building a business or claim to own it or deserve its profits, because you built upon a foundation of capital, infrastructure, and knowledge that was there before you.

This is a common viewpoint on the egalitarian Left, where Obama has his roots, and which he clearly still represents.

To interpret his comment any other way than I did, is to ignore the broader ideological context.

But even not ignoring that ideological context, it's a huge stretch to claim that he meant "those" when he said "that," or to claim that he meant something else, other than what he said.

Lots of people in the media have been outright dishonest about this (John Stewart comes to mind - he had a pretty ridiculous segment on this).

[ktizo]

To interpret his comment any other way than I did, is to ignore the broader ideological context.

Is more to ignore the rest of the speech. He goes on to say - "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together." - which doesn't sound as though he is claiming that you can't take credit for building a business, just that you can't take all the credit.

Now, I am no fan of Obama (Or roughly 90% of politicians, for that matter), but to try and make out that he was claiming that no-one can take credit for their business, when he clearly states that success comes from individual initiative, is disingenuous at best.

[javert]

doesn't sound as though he is claiming that you can't take credit for building a business, just that you can't take all the credit.

Yes, he's saying you can't take all the credit, which means that you can't "take credit" for it.

Taking credit has an implied "all the", as in, "take [all the] credit."

This distinction actually matters. Obama is taking something absolute -- This is my business, these are my profits -- and turning it into something vague. That vagueness leaves plenty of room for all kinds of government controls and taxes.

In fact, contra Obama, if you built a business, it is rightly your business, along with all of the profits (and all of the credit).

[_pius]

Why the gratuitous, partisan threadcrapping? And with a debunked "quote" to boot?

[xfernandox]

The political argument isn't that you had "nothing" to do with your success. All businesses require help from many factors. You need luck. You need other people (um, like customers, your employees, the gov. for public infrastructure investment, your family, your friends).

It's just egregious to claim that you alone are 100% responsible for your success, like you don't interact in a world with 7+ billion. You're telling me your business doesn't rely any small subset of those people?

I don't doubt that you work hard, or don't deserve your success.

[Mvandenbergh]

Who cares? People say things that are wrong all the time, it's better to ignore them and say "How interesting, I'll keep that in mind" than to devote mental resources to getting upset about it.

[nightski]

Not that I feel a particular way about it, but he is the President. People tend to care what he says. Just sayin.

[Mvandenbergh]

The President? I had to look this up (I'm not American) and it looks like he was intending to refer to the public infrastructure that all businesses use rather than the businesses themselves.

Anyway, I don't much care for the politics of any country but it's still a waste of time to pay too much attention to the minutia of political campaigning. Before November, both parties are going to say a great number of things that are untrue, out of context, and that they don't believe. If you let yourself get upset by the circus show months before election time, you'll go barking mad.

[MBCook]

He was, and it's perfectly clear if you listen to the whole clip.

But it was one of those statements that was trivial to use out of context and perfectly fit the Republican narrative about Obama's views.

I'm a Republican, and I've thought it was a pathetic tactic since I first heard it. But that's why I nearly stop listening to the news during political seasons.

[_pius]

Except that the President didn't actually say that.

Moreover, that characterization has been widely debunked even by the likes of ABC, CBS, and NBC who rarely call bullshit on anything. Aren't you embarrassed to repeat that false talking point here, especially when it has zero to do with the OP?

[nightski]

I didn't repeat it, someone else did... I was merely saying that the President isn't some random "person". His words have influence. Nor would I ever be embarrassed about anything on Hacker News. haha

[dbecker]

And this is how a topical thread about startups gets derailed into unproductive political bickering.

[canadiancreed]

And suppresses better and more on-topic answers to boot. Removing the grandstanding of this tangent would greatly improve this thread and give the focus to something that the vast majority of people visiting here would be interested in.

[chrisbennet]

See Just World Fallacy

[ktizo]

some asshole will tell you that you didn't actually build your business.

I though the whole thing was very similar to Carl Sagan's comment - If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. - and I never thought that Carl Sagan was having a go at bakers.

[robomartin]

Right. The difference is that Carl Sagan didn't use such comments to instigate and exploit class warfare and divide a country. Carl Sagan didn't use such statements to brainwash the masses for personal gain. Carl Sagan didn't use that statement to mean that a successful baker, today, owes their success to the creation of the universe.

We operate within the reality that we happen to live within at the time of our lives. The Vikings had one reality. They moved within it and flourished. People born in England in the 1,200's had a very different reality to construct their lives around than those born 200, 400 or 800 years later. That's just the way things work. You use the tools you have at your disposal.

It would be unthinkable to propose that someone in the year 1,200 invent the transistor. Lot's had to happen before the transistor could become a reality. Did they fail because of a failure of government to provide the necessary infrastructure? No, they failed because they would have been, quite simply put, way ahead of their time.

Did Fleming come across Penicillin because government built roads? Not really.

How about Madame Courie?

Tesla?

Hertz?

Newton?

IBM?

Dell?

Staples?

Coca Cola?

Did the engineers in the 1940's owe the development of the transistor to the roads, sewers and other services government managed for us? Of course not. Their success was the result of a myriad of personal factors, not the least of which were inspiration, intellect, drive and being in the right place at the right time. The infrastructure was there already. It wasn't built for them to be successful at this one task.

It is an insult to the human condition to propose that we owe our personal success to government.

Historically speaking, governments have caused humanity far more pain, agony, death and loss than almost any other human invention. Individuals don't go to war, governments do.

So, Mr. Obama, do we also owe the 50 million people who died in World War 2 to the infrastructure the US Government put into place: roads, railroads, phones, telegraphs, airports, etc.?

Of course not. Don't try to make connections where they don't exist. Politics sucks.

[guiomie]

"Did the engineers in the 1940's owe the development of the transistor to the roads, sewers and other services government managed for us? Of course not."

Of course yes. Government makes sure we have good life conditions. If you have a government that takes decent care of its people, then those people will strive and innovate, instead of surviving.

If government is so bad around here, move to Somalia. Come tell us how much you think a government that doesn't invest in its people is great for innovation.

[robomartin]

Oh, please. Government didn't build these things so that a handful of guys cold invent the transistor. These are things that our society wants and requires. Businesses and entrepreneurs live within this reality.

Entrepreneurs headed West and literally created their own path as they went along. No infrastructure existed. Many years later the railroad became a necessity. The Interstate system didn't come into play until almos 200 years after the creation of this country and around 450 years after Columbus arrived.

You could very well argue that the exact opposite is true: Business has driven governments to push forward decisions and projects that benefit all. The Panama Canal could be one example of this.

[kamaal]

His point is that it those luxuries applies to everybody. Then why didn't everybody invent transistors?

Given equal conditions, not everyone achieves equally.

[a5seo]

Are you arguing that Einstein invented the atomic bomb in the US because our infrastructre was better than Germany?

[Choppen5]

Einstein invented the atomic bomb? That's funny. Not very HN level of knowledge there buddy.

And yes.. that is almost exactly the reason (US vs Germany developed the first atomic bomb). 1000x the resources and scientists, applied to a know physical possibility, supported by: the government, and infrastructure via the army.

[a5seo]

Sorry, late night comment. My point is that there's nothing magical about infrastructure like roads and bridges.

How do you account for other advanced economies that have invested more than the US (presumably a cumulative number over the past 50 years, excluding WWII rebuilding investments, per capita) and yet fail to produce the same wealth (again per capita) as the US?

Clearly, other factors outside of individual effort are involved, but I'm sorry, I'm not buying that they are roads and bridges.

In fact, I don't think the X factor is anything the US has intentionally invested in. And I don't think government gets the credit, any more than someone who plays "slop" in pool.

Shit, look at all the so-called startup hubs that are trying to recreate SV via infrastructure investments. Can you show me one that's worked?

Or look at startuplandia: startups choose different cloud hosting services, and as far as I can tell, the particular one you choose (or even the choice to use cloud vs. colo) is not predictive of success.

I don't know... maybe on a national level you have evidence (perhaps a scatterplot of cum infrastructure investment per capita against wealth per capita by country) showing the two are causal (or even correlated), but I have yet to see it. Here's my 2 cents as someone who founded and sold a business for 8 figures:

Businesses succeed or fail because a) founder/exec's intelligence, b) ability to execute, c) luck, d) x-factors-that-government-didn't-build.

[flyinRyan]

I think the above post was pointing out that Germany actually spent incredible amounts on infrastructure and business. I have a hard time believing the US had 1000x the resources. Germany had the Silver Arrow Mercedes race car that was doing 250mph back then. They also didn't have much restriction on what scientists were allowed to try.

[marmaduke]

there's a quote from a German minister during WWII: "Their German scientists are better than our German scientists."

[mixmastamyk]

I think you're looking for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Then you can brush up on your history ;).

http://www.doug-long.com/einstein.htm

[ktizo]

Although he may have developed much of the physics and saw that it was possible, Einstien didn't invent the atomic bomb and he developed the physics before he got to the US.

I think that he is arguing that there are certain things you need to have organised in society to give the space for more advanced development, irrespective of individual brilliance.

[ktizo]

I am reminded strongly of ... "What have the Romans ever done for us?" ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

[javert]

One point you're trying to make is that having certain resources at your disposal (for example, previous knowledge gained by others), and then making something new with them, is still a significant accomplishment that one deserves credit for.

Another point that you're trying to make is that government doesn't tend to have all that much to do with having those prior resources. (OK, so the government organizes road-building - big deal.)

I agree with you, just not with the way you presented your position.

[ktizo]

It is an insult to the human condition to propose that we owe our personal success to government.

All ownership rights that are not built on direct possession are down to the social contract of government. Without that you would have no rights to anything that you cannot personally defend. This is really the only reason why we put up with government, despite all the associated crap that goes along with it. We like being able to leave the parcel of land we have claimed without having to leave someone on it permanently to make sure it is still there to return to when we get back.

Individuals don't go to war, governments do.

They wouldn't get very far without the soldiers.