[tadfisher]

True; but a counterargument is that the _display protocol_ is not the right abstraction layer for decoupling window management from the display server. There is nothing stopping someone from writing a batteries-included wlroots-like library where the only piece you need to write is the window management and input handling, or even an entire Wayland compositor that farms these pieces out to an embedded scripting runtime.

But even then, I think we have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to writing an X11 WM that actually works, because X11 does not actually give much for free. ICCCM is the glue that makes window management work, and it is a complete inversion of "mechanism, not policy" that defines the X11 protocol. It also comes in at 60-odd pages in PDF form: https://www.x.org/docs/ICCCM/icccm.pdf

For an example, X11 does not specify how copy-and-paste should work between applications; that's all ICCCM.

[fmbb]

Copy&paste between apps should work just fine using this window manager.

I have not tried mwm but use my own 100 line C window manager and I can copy and paste without issue.

Wayland will take 20 more years before it can dethrone X11. And even then we will mostly run X11 apps on XWayland.

[tadfisher]

I'm sorry for not making it more clear, but that was just an example of something left unspecified by the X11 core protocol but instead defined in a standard convention.

An example that matters for window managers would be complex window reparenting policies or input grabs, but that's a little less descriptive of the core concept I was trying to get across.

[DonHopkins]

We may not always have Paris, but we will always have XRotateBuffers.

https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/utilities/XRotateBuffers.html

[theodric]

> Wayland will take 20 more years before it can dethrone X11. And even then we will mostly run X11 apps on XWayland.

And yet RedHat/Fedora and Ubuntu, as well as GNOME, are leading the charge to drop X support in the next release; KDE as of V7. It may take 20 years for Wayland to match X's capabilities, but it looks like the guillotine has already been rolled out.

A more conspiratorial person than I could be led to think that RedHat is actively working against the viability of a free software desktop, but of course that's nonsense, because they're helping the cause by forcing all resources to be focused on one target at the expense of near-term usability. And the XLibre crowd also aren't controlled opposition intended to weaponize the culture war and make people associate X with fascism, that's just nonsense some idiot cooked up to stir shit.

[blueflow]

> because they're helping the cause by forcing all resources to be focused on one target

This might work for company-backed projects but not for OSS enthusiasts and power users - they will leave for greener pastures. For example, Linux Mint lives off the manpower that GNOME 3 drove away, Void and Alpine Linux live off the manpower that systemd drove away. There will be some ecosystem that will live off the manpower that Wayland drives away.

[DonHopkins]

https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/unix-haters/x-window...

Window Manager Flames, by Don Hopkins

The ICCCM Sucks

The ICCCM, abbreviated I39L, sucks. I39L is a hash for the acronymic expansion of ICCCM for "Inter-Client Communication Conventions Manual". Please read it if you don't believe me that it sucks! It really does. However, we must live with it. But how???

[...]