[glimshe]

Forgive me, but I don't think scratch is all that good - my son did it too. I never liked these super simplified approaches to computing because I don't think they are necessary. Scratch wouldnt be that useful in the 80s. BASIC, despite its flaws, was both simple and powerful. You could code in the same language as many pros from the get go.

[hakfoo]

"You can code in the same language as the pros" is a huge selling point. If you're a kid using a computer, you've seen off-the-shelf software and that's probably your inspiration. You want to be able to make standalone things that look and work like the ones you've used before, not "it only runs in this sandbox" toys. "Use the cool program I wrote, Dad" hits different when he can run it just like Excel and Firefox.

[ljf]

Yeah Scratch has a lot of limitations - but as an introduction to the concepts, it has been amazing. Watching him be able to build a game that he enjoyed on day one, then by maybe 6 lessons later to be using Python - has been great. I'm not a coder so it is not something I could help with (I play with Arduino etc. but I don't know python).

But getting the early simple lessons to explain how changing variables affects the game, and how to run things in sequence, has been really powerful for him.

[glimshe]

You can learn a lot from Scratch, that's for sure. I'm not saying it's bad, it's actually a decent learning tool. But I think it's a step back from BASIC.

You could code a ton of fairly decent games, utilities and even full applications in BASIC. While that's theoretically possible in Scratch, it's a lot more cumbersome. Scratch feels more like a puzzle game than a real programming language. BASIC, especially the later, better dialects, could do it all. With 2 very understandable lines:

10 PRINT "glimshe rulez!"

20 GOTO 10

You could teach that the computer is under your command and you can ask it to do work for you nonstop. It teaches a bit of I/O, program sequence and loops. No stupid "main" functions, indentation nonsense, cryptic library includes or cumbersome drag-and-drop. The simplicity of the code above is one of the treasures of computing history. 90% or more of humanity can quickly understand these two lines and I super disagree with Dijkstra about BASIC.

It was at the same time a teaching tool and a professional programming language (although, arguably, not amazing at that).

[ryoshu]

Scratch is good for immediate feedback. I mentored some middle school students last year that learned Scratch in elementary. They've graduated to JavaScript and Python now. They built a bunch of simple—and super fun—games for a school project. Notepad.exe and a browser :)

[DonHopkins]

Then you should check out Snap!, which is like Scratch without any of the limitations, essentially a visual programming language with the full power of Scheme.

https://snap.berkeley.edu

Snap! 5 is here (snap.berkeley.edu):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20309162

>One of the coolest ways to learn programming I've ever seen is the Snap! visual programming language, which is written in JavaScript and runs in the browser. https://snap.berkeley.edu

>It's the culmination of years of work by Brian Harvey and Jens Mönig and other Smalltalk and education experts. It benefits from their experience and expert understanding about constructionist education, Smalltalk, Scratch, E-Toys, Lisp, Logo, Star Logo, and many other excellent systems.

>Snap! takes the best ideas, then freshly and coherently synthesizes them into a visual programming language that kids can use, but is also satisfying to professional programmers, with all the power of Scheme (lexical closures, special forms, macros, continuations, user defined functions and control structures), but deeply integrating and leveraging the web browser and the internet (JavaScript primitives, everything is a first class object, dynamically loaded extensions, etc).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18497883

>Alan Kay wrote some interesting stuff about some of the inspirations for "Tile-" and "Block-Based Programming", like "Thinkin' Things", in a discussion about the Snap! visual programming language! https://snap.berkeley.edu

>From: Alan Kay Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:49:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Blocky + Micropolis = Blockropolis! ;)

>Yes, all of these "blocks" editors sprouted from the original one I designed for Etoys* more than 20 years ago now -- most of the followup was by way of Jens Moenig -- who did SNAP. You can see Etoys demoed on the OLPC in my 2007 TED talk.

>I'd advise coming up with a special kid's oriented language for your SimCity/Metropolis system and then render it in "blocks".

>Cheers

>Alan

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38016554

>I'm also a huge fan of Snap!, which has all the advantages of Logo (Lisp without parenthesis) and Scratch / eToys / Squeak / App Inventor family of block based visual programming languages, but all the power of Scheme.

>If you know Scheme, then it's easy to think about Snap!: it's just Scheme with a visual block syntax, but with some functions renamed to make them easier to learn, plus all the stage and turtle graphics stuff from Scratch, running in a web browser!

>I didn't realize until watching in amazement as Jens Mönig used his own creation, that it also has full keyboard support, so you can create and edit programs without using the mouse!

>It's much easier to teach Scheme to kids by teaching them Snap!, because the user interface is so much better than a text editor.