[johnisgood]

And at the same time:

> GrapheneOS is not immune to exploitation, but the fearmongering done in these ongoing attacks on it is very clearly fabricated. They feel threatened enough by GrapheneOS to engage in coordinated attempts at convincing people that it's unable to protect their privacy and security.

So... they (cops and friends) are saying that GrapheneOS is for criminals, AND that it does not work at protecting anyone's privacy and is not for security. Amazing.

See: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114784553445461948 and the rest.

[kspacewalk2]

Fridges are for criminals too. The very good ones can keep the severed body parts cold for longer, thus preventing spoilage and reports of foul odours from downstairs neighbours. Will Frigidaire and Bosch stop selling this criminal technology to criminals?

[TheNewsIsHere]

I think the best way to prevent the sale of crime fridges to criminals would be to have national governments integrate the entirety of data that each nation has, from every level, on every citizen. Then we can create an API which market participants like Frigidaire and Bosch can use to query whether a purchase should be permitted based on the purchaser.

/s, if not obvious. Strange times.

[throwing_away]

I think all reasonable citizens could agree that a simple licensure for fridge ownership is for the best.

Besides, we can use the extra license taxes from people with multiple fridges to raise funds for the schools.

You don't hate the children, do you?

[johnisgood]

Exactly, and I hope we keep track of all fridge purchases with biometrics from customers (and as thus, should not be able to order from online). That better be hooked up to an API that the cops can query at any time.

[harvey9]

I bought a used fridge and flashed it with a custom ROM

[sharperguy]

A better analogy would be a balaclava. Lots of legitimate uses but it's uncommon to see people wearing them day to day and is very popular with criminals. But we don't imagine we could ban balaclavas to prevent crime.

[fifticon]

It depends on what you mean by 'ban'. In the country where I live (Denmark), they are very much banned, unless you can demonstrate your legitimate current use case for them. In particular, you are not allowed to wear them in public places where people gather or gather in groups. And 'beating up cops anonymously' is not an approved use case :-) The rule as I understand it, also covers [sic] extreme religious dress rules for women.

Here is the relevant section from our current laws: https://danskelove.dk/straffeloven/134b

[robertlagrant]

I used to wear one as a kid in the UK in the winter. They weren't invented for crime.

[olyjohn]

I wear one when I ride my motorcycle. Keeps my neck warm, and keeps the cold air off my face. And helps keep the dust off my face when I'm off road. And adds an extra layer of protection. They are also nice when you borrow someone else's helmet. The GoKart places near me give them out to help keep rental helmets from getting nasty.

[Y_Y]

> They weren't invented for crime.

Not literally, but there was some criminally bad warfare going on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Balaclava

[robertlagrant]

Knitwear is often a cause for conflict[0]!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jersey

[db48x]

Don’t forget about the Charge of the Light Brigade, commanded by the Earl of Cardigan. After the war he became famous and people copied the knit jumper he wore, naming it the cardigan. That’s two knit garments from the same battle.

Canon to the right of them, canon to the left of them canon in front of them volleyed and thundered. Stormed at with shot and shell boldly they rode and well, into the jaws of death into the mouth of hell rode the six hundred.

[johnisgood]

May I ask what it has to do with the mask?

[harimau777]

Are protests considered a legitimate use? If not, then that seems pretty problematic.

[justacrow]

In Sweden at leasts, balaclavas and other wearables "preventing identification" is specifically illegal _at_ protests. From what I remember the danish case is similar.

[Wistar]

I wear one for taking photos of reflective objects, particularly car interiors. Sure minimizes retouching my stupid face out of reflections. Black cloth gloves, too.

[thenthenthen]

Gathering in groups in public? Thats wild, thats been banned since many years in many Dutch major cities. (“samenscholingsverbod”)

[ipaddr]

Can you wear one for fashion?

[encom]

No.

https://politi.dk/lov-og-information/tildaekningsforbud

(Trigger warning: danish)

[saaaaaam]

Actually, the Irish government considered exactly that! I'm not sure if they moved forward with it though.

And Southend in England tried to do the same (but failed...)

[Spooky23]

Well, in the United States, they are getting associated with the secret police.

[aredox]

But if the police asks you to remove your balaclava, you can only do so.

[johnisgood]

UK should have an answer to that (see: knives). :D

They really are absurd.

[Arch-TK]

The local police forces can start offering a service where they will cause a controlled leak of the refrigerant in your fridge to reduce its efficiency therefore making it less useful for refrigerating body parts.

https://kentandmedwayvru.co.uk/project/pointless/

[johnisgood]

I like the URL, "pointless". :D

I wonder if they are going to do anything about at least a thousand number of other items that may be used to cause bodily harm to a person. What about something related, such as forks?! Bags?

[paulryanrogers]

Can I take a moment to say how jealous I am that the UK's mass attack problem is largely about knives and not guns?

Here in the land of more-guns-than-humans it feels so much more bleak.

[graemep]

Even better, the US has a higher knife murder rate than the UK does.

On the other hand IIRC it has a lower rate of at least some types of violent assault.

One possible explanation is the healthcare system - fast treatment makes a big difference to the chances of surviving an attack (and are one reason murder rates have fallen over the years, and why developed countries have much lower murder rates). Does anything in the US system delay treatment significantly?

[kortilla]

No, emergency rooms will quickly fix immediate threats to life long before any of the insurance crap enters the conversation.

[graemep]

What about geography, or facilities, or willingness to go into emergency?

[DrScientist]

Back to the parental comment - it's been decided there isn't really a good reason to have most guns and so they are strictly controlled - I mean what's the legit reason for having an assault rifle?

Now if the government thinks there isn't really a good reason to have a phone they can't hack ( because they are the good guys right.... and in theory need court orders etc - so there is legal oversight ) then they will see such phones in the same light and consider banning.

This is at the core of the argument - and why governments ask for a special backdoor - as they accept a generally secure phone ( to stop your neighbour snooping ) is a good thing, but they are used to being able to tap phones and open letters if a judge gives them permission.

Obviously the ironic thing is most phones probably already do have special backdoors - but only for the country where the makers reside - and that countries government doesn't want other governments to know or have acccess.

And in the case of fridges - there is no argument there that they aren't legit reasons to own.

In the case of knives - zombie knives don't really have legit use, whereas kitchen knives do.

[t-3]

> I mean what's the legit reason for having an assault rifle?

If the government is allowed to have them, the people should be allowed to have them. Anything else would be inviting tyranny, as has been demonstrated ad nauseam by pretty much every government ever.

[aredox]

Has the NRA ever defended the right of black people like the Black Panthers to bear arms?

https://www.history.com/articles/black-panthers-gun-control-...

Your second amendment defenders are actually on the side of tyranny, ready to torch the Capitol a second time when their caudillo orders so.

[FirmwareBurner]

Are American people allowed to have F-35s jets and Abrams tanks too? NO?! Then what kind of tyranny is this where your elected government's military has the monopoly on violence?

Feels unsafe man. We should look towards free and egalitarian countries like Congo, Sudan or Zimbabwe where citizens have access to the same hardware as the military and they use it regularly to deal justice, competing with the local military. Much better.

[DrScientist]

In a democracy the government is the people ( more or less ). Tyranny of the majority, enforcing the collective view via collective organised violence.

And while it may seem unfair that your favourite peccadillo is deemed illegal - on balance it's a much better system than every man, woman and child for themselves.

[ARandomerDude]

“Give me liberty or give me death.”

The ultimate point of gun ownership isn’t sporting or even self defense, though they are useful for both. The real reason America is armed is so that if our government ever gets too tyrannical, we can do something about it.

Some people may not like that today but if you go back and read what people wrote circa 1775 and forward, this is the clear rationale.

[_carbyau_]

Where is the line on tyranny?

Who decides? Someone who doesn't like how the last election turned out?

Some person who decides the police are being too tyrannical by asking them to turn down their stereo for neighbourhood peace?

Honestly, when does this go from "we're prepared" to "time to act"?

This has mess written all over it.

Also, it should be noted that the army and police are made up of humans too.

As has been pointed out in various war tribunals doing something under orders doesn't entirely absolve you from moral duty.

[paulryanrogers]

If the Second Amendment (2A) meant to preserve the ability to overthrow the government then why can we not have bombs and tanks?

And why does it mention the right within the context of a "well regulated militia"?

Could it be they feared having a permanent national army, so did the 2A instead? Only later to realize having a standing army were necessary after all?

No that couldn't be it. Because then there would be no rational reason for keeping 2A and flooding the country with deadly weapons.

[gishglish]

> The real reason America is armed is so that if our government ever gets too tyrannical

It’s been doing that for at least two decades, yet I’m still waiting for you people to get on with it.

[ourmandave]

Yeah, they even threw in a thing about well regulated militias, but left in a comma that got interpreted as "any toon can own as many guns as they want."

[WarOnPrivacy]

> The real reason America is armed is so that if our government ever gets too tyrannical, we can do something about it.

The something is killing police and soldiers. That's the quiet part.

Unless the tyrannical government has presented itself at the compound in a force of plumbers and actuaries.

[subscribed]

Zombie knives yeah, but you can get into serious trouble for the multitool with locking blade if you forgot to take it our from your backpack after a camping trip.

This is very much absurd.

[graemep]

So are the laws on swords. You can have a straight sword but not a curved one, unless its either an antique or craft made using traditional methods.

The police quite often destroy antiques handed in by people who know about the bans but not the exceptions.

I have a multitool I bought long before the ban, that is now illegal to carry routinely. I bought one with a significantly longer blade for my daughter which is perfectly legal to carry.

[fifticon]

I can think of a country where they should probably ban windows, given how many people fall out of them.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> I mean what's the legit reason for having an assault rifle?

If I understand the proponents correctly: Ostensibly it is to defend one's property and people from a tyrannical government.

Just for an exercise, let's say you believe that. And let's say that day is here. The tyrannical government has arrived and has necessitated your use of assault rifles.

The people you're shooting, what are they wearing? They're almost certainly wearing uniforms; police and/or military.

From the proponents' standpoint, the reason to have assault rifles is to kill police and soldiers.

[chiefalchemist]

Not quite. From the proponents' standpoint… it’s to defend themselves and their property from anyone who is a treat. It could be a tyrant. It could be agents of that tyrant.

[miki123211]

My unpopular European opinion is that mass shootings are a cultural problem, not an "access to guns" problem.

Cars (especially trucks) can help you achieve similar aims, and are much harder to restrict.

[johnisgood]

Yeah, you may want to check https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44665755.

[johnisgood]

Yeah, but knives have a wide range of use, whereas guns do not.

You cannot buy a kitchen knife because people MAY use it cause harm.

It is like forbidding the use of roads because it MAY be used to <insert illegal activity here>. Uses (usage?) of roads are even more broad than uses of knives.

I think it is easier to argue in favor of knives (or against the prohibition of ... of knives) than guns, for this reason alone.

[bradleyy]

According to the CDC, guns are used to prevent at least 500,000 violent acts per year in the USA.

Why is "wide range of use" being used as the metric rather than "societal good"?

While there are downsides, there's more to it.

[paulryanrogers]

> guns are used to prevent at least 500,000 violent acts per year in the USA.

Doubt. More like 70K. Far fewer than incidents where guns were used to cause harm.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/debunking-the-guns-...

[johnisgood]

I was not arguing against guns though. I just tried to say that it is a bit more absurd to ban knives to prevent violence.

[olddustytrail]

> You cannot buy a kitchen knife because people MAY use it cause harm.

Yes I can. I have knives I bought recently in my kitchen.

How could you possibly believe that people in the UK can't buy knives? Do you realise how foolish that sounds?

[johnisgood]

> Do you realise how foolish that sounds?

The irony.

Just as foolish as these ways are to prevent violence.

These criminals might switch to forks, better get your Government get one step ahead of them.

And no, you cannot buy kitchen knives if you are under a certain age, it is ought to prevent a lot of crimes, I am sure.

[Anonbrit]

Under 16s in the UK can't buy kitchen knives, and that's an ok balance for me

[DrScientist]

You can buy a kitchen knife - just not if you are under age. Not it's perfectly legal for an adult to buy one for a budding cook - all the age ban does is put a 'responsible' adult in the loop.

You also can't carry one in public without reasonable cause - which in the end is decided by a judge.

[ndsipa_pomu]

Chefs can typically get away with carrying their knives (they get very possessive over the care of their own knives and so won't leave them in the kitchen) if they're in a knife roll and in a backpack or similar.

[BirAdam]

A gun can stop an attacker whether human, ursine, or large feline.

A gun can be used for recreational shooting.

A gun can just be an historical collectors' piece.

A gun can be used in researching bullet proof vests and other equipment for a startup looking to sell to law enforcement/military.

There are many reasons for gun ownership. Ultimately, the reason should be that the individual is free to do as he/she chooses so long as he/she doesn't initiate a violent interaction.

The most often cited reason for banning firearms is the prevention of school shootings. For some reason, everyone is focused on the gun and not the fact that students wish to do violence at schools. What is it about the modern educational system that students wish to perpetrate violence in the schools to other students and teachers? Why isn't the mental health of the American youth at the center of this conversation?

[hluska]

Yet strangely, Canada has almost the exact same media and near identical mental health statistics and the country has a tiny fraction of the school shootings in the United States. Like it or not, the availability of military grade weapons sure seems to increase the likelihood that a kid will get killed at school.

[paulryanrogers]

Let's fund and destigmatize mental healthcare! And also ban guns!

Guns are more likely to cause accidental death or suicide than to save your life. Big cats and bears can be dealt with using sprays and other measures.

A bit of sport shooting isn't worth having to train kindergartners in active shooter drills.

[johnisgood]

I do not disagree. It should be focusing on the fact that a student wanted to cause violence. It could have been done through a gun, a knife, a fork, and a thousand different items. In fact, a fist may suffice. Or an item that is readily available at schools. Any item. That said, guns are especially good at "harm as many as possible". Just like bombs are.

[brokenmachine]

I should be free to do whatever I want with my Javelin missile as long as I don't initiate a violent interaction.

[dessimus]

Don't forget about range tops: they are used for cooking, and what is "cooked"? Methamphetamines. When will the police stop Big Appliance! /s

[deaddodo]

The base purpose of a range top is cooking.

The base purpose of a gun is shooting things, generally living breathing ones.

I could kill a guy with a stick, a rock, a frying pan, a blanket, etc…pretty much most things; however, none of those things exist expressly for that purpose.

Simple concept, huh?

[voxic11]

My guns are made for hunting, are your saying they should be exempted from this discussion (are you only talking about handguns and automatic rifles)?

[deaddodo]

> The base purpose of a gun is shooting things, generally living breathing ones.

Sounds like your hunting rifle still qualifies.

[johnisgood]

That is what I have been trying to say, too.

[t_mahmood]

It's like my bank's application, your mobile with all the latest security update is prohibited, because the bootloader is unlocked. But your 6-year-old mobile that received its last security update 3/4 years ago is fine!

[qualeed]

I think people are misinterpreting your comment? Or I am.

What I think you are saying is:

The police are arguing both sides (in typical fashion). On one side, the police say that GrapheneOS is for criminals because of its privacy, etc. However the police are also trying to convince people that GrapheneOS is not private or secure, in an attempt to sway people from using it.

[johnisgood]

Yes, the police are arguing both sides, according to what I have read[1], and that they are not doing it in English but in other languages, e.g. Swedish. I am not sure why I am getting down-voted though.

[1] https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114784488424006190 and so forth.

[qualeed]

>I am not sure why I am getting down-voted though.

My guess is the ambiguous use of "they", interpreting "they" as GrapheneOS instead of the police.

That makes it seem like you are criticizing GrapheneOS rather than the police.

[johnisgood]

I edited my comment. I thought it was obvious because it was the police claiming the former, and connected the two with an "AND". I was not criticizing GrapheneOS. Thanks!

[antonvs]

It was obvious, people just have terrible reading comprehension, and they also don't read to the end of a comment if something near the beginning triggers them.

[johnisgood]

I came to the same conclusion based on some of the comments addressed to me. It is like they did not even bother reading the comment to which I replied, or the last 2 comments.

[hluska]

This whole thing is quite the stretch. Someone who clearly has no idea what they’re talking about acted like a know it all on a forum. I don’t see how that’s evidence of a coordinated attack. Police saying dumb things about security tech is nothing new either nor is it a smoking gun.

Occam’s razor applies even when we want to believe a cool story.

[giantg2]

This is basically the ploy with many secure phones - say it's for criminals but actually have a backdoor for law enforcement. I wonder if there's some exploit on the Pixel or Graphene that law enforcement is now aware of.

[NoGravitas]

> “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” - Umberto Eco, Ur-Fascism

[reverendsteveii]

well if it doesn't work for protecting your data it doesn't work for protecting criminals' data as well, right? or is this a lot less about making rational sense and a lot more about manufacturing consent to violate our rights?