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Actually there are many (admittedly weak or low in n) studies in Europe, which show some benefit. I will post some titles later, check this space.

I agree that there are no big prospective studies and probably will never anymore be, because there is really no interest or gain from big pharma. The big time of physical therapies was last century and all studies, at least in Germany, stop by the 90s.

An interesting article to read about the different approaches in Europe and America is this: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2203/dose-response.06-00...

Please don’t I won’t read them. I already saw the overview ok Wikipedia. Some studies that may suggest hormesis, most of them flawed. Everything is either a proposal or hypothesis. Absolutely it should be studied but those radiation spas are bunk science for now.

Prove where is the flaw first. A small or old study is not necessarily flawed. The burden of proving they are flawed falls on you. And no, I care less that they have not been replicated because the community lacks interest. Nobody said the effect is miraculous or similar, to compete with modern medical applications, but certainly they are cheap methods that complement with other general wellness effects of spas.

The burden of proof is on the person making claims that goes against the various world organizations that claim otherwise. I agree the current models that deal with exposure are probably not accurate but again nobody has proven the beneficial claims you have stated. I tend to believe in the markets being efficient in the long run, if these spas were beneficial surely someone would have captured the data after multiple decades.

What are the various world organisations you are talking about? Because the German ones (among others) certainly have not found it harmful and have not banned it.

I told you many times, unfortunately, no one will do studies on these things anymore because there is no money it and it cannot be patented. That spas generally are beneficial, though, for general wellbeing and especially if combined with known thermal stimuli (such as sauna) is well known and there are several Finnish studies to prove it.

Last but not least, I have come across to many Americans who are generally doutbful of the medical indication of spas because there is little to no tradition overseas.

infecto 329 days ago

No world organization accepts radiation hormesis. Full stop. I am glad you find benefit and I am not suggesting it’s dangerous but I am also not accepting that it is beneficial.

This is not an American vs European thing please don’t make it. I am simply saying no governing body has accepted it beyond a study. Your view of the world is skewed if you think studies are not happening.

People have been questioning LNT, which is the accepted policy by most of the world including Europe. There is nuance and suggestive evidence that low dose is ok, after all humans evolved with background radiation. What is unclear is how beneficial it is and at what doses it becomes harmful. There is no clear study that shows benefit hence LNT being the adopted approach.

Bogoljudow VM (1988) The clinical aspectsof radon therapy. Y Phys Med Baln Med Klim (Sonderheft 1) 17: 59-66

Pratzel et al (1933) Wirksamkeitsnachweis von Radonbädern im Rahmen einer kurortmedizinischen Behandlung des cervicalen Schmerzsyndroms. Phys Rehab Kur Med 3: 76-82

And I found many more particularly from a certain Gunther R who has published a lot in Germany between the 70s and 90s with minor studies referenced. As said before, this is a dying tradition and no one cares to redo the experiments with better conditions, unfortunately. But until proven otherwise, it's all we have.

Thank you for proving my point. These are at best a hypothesis that no global body has approved. Is the LNT model overly strict? Probably. But is there strong evidence that low doses are beneficial? Nope.

No, you have proven my point. There is no strong evidence and IT WILL NEVER BE cause it's like trying to make a new study for a drug that has its patent expired. Are you willing to sponsor studies with your own money? Cause nobody else will.

Unfortunately, we are stuck with the little evidence there is from the last century when it was the heyday of balneological applications. However, these little studies we have, even with few patients is better than nothing and certainly there is also not enough proof that these patients have been harmed, if doing radon therapy according to modern standards of exposure.

As mentioned before: the linear extrapolation of the risk from high doses of radiation to low doses assumed by the LNT model greatly overestimates the risk of harm, and ignores the potential benefits. Low doses of radiation have been found to stimulate growth (Stebbing 1982), DNA repair (Kondo 1998a and 1998b), antioxidant action (Feinendegen 1987; Pollycove 1998), and immune response (Liu et al. 1987). Other studies have shown that cancer rates actually decrease in populations exposed to low levels of radiation beyond normal background radiation (Bogan 1998; Cohen 1995; Dissanayake 2005; Hattori 1997; Kondo 1993; Mifune 1992). The overestimation of risk by the LNT model is considered important by hormesis advocates, because its cautious perspective prevents patients from receiving low-level ionizing radiation treatments, such as radon, which might help them. Moreover, if radon levels were held to the standards mandated by the EPA and other agencies following the LNT model, the costs of residential radon abatement would be extraordinarily high (Macklis and Beresford 1991; Thomas and Goldsmith 1995).

And yet it’s still all an unproven hypothesis. Glad you believe in it, placebos can be strong.

If a placebo or nocebo is cheaper than a costly medical intervention, then it's good as that if not better. The problem is: you name it placebo although patients (for example with rheumatological diseases) have really responded to it, sometimes equally good to medications. And rheuma diseases are real debilitating diseases, a placebo would no work so easily. The mechanisms of action of radon baths are potentially many, and many have been already described: 1. Hormetic Effect (Low-Dose Radiation), 2. Anti-Inflammatory Effects, 3. Immune Modulation, 4. Analgesic Effects (Pain Relief), 5. Neuroendocrine Regulation.

Again: unfortunately there will never be studies with thousands of patients to prove this or disprove this, because there is no money to be made. So we stay with the little proof have 20th century studies in Europe with the limited patients evaluated.

infecto 329 days ago

What are you even ranting on about? There are multiple papers and work trying to question LNT every year. Despite what you think, not all research is fueled by patents. If you could prove that radiation therapy actually reduces cancer in populations that would be quite a prestige and also a lot of economic opportunity.

You keep sharing anecdotes but again none of them have been proven by science. I understand Germans have a love for homeopathy and some of it may work, similar to TCM but a lot of it does not.

1718627440 331 days ago

What? Is gravity an unproven hypothesis, because Newton had the idea some centuries ago and now nobody bothers to prove it, because nobody expect it not to?

I have no stance on radon, but rejection studies solely because they're 30years old is dumb.

infecto 329 days ago

The only thing that is dumb is your argument. As I keep repeating myself. No governing body has accepted these therapies as valid. It’s at best a hypothesis. There are been no conclusive studies of the benefits. LNT is probably overly protective at low dose ranges but there is not conclusive evidence on low dosing being beneficial and especially at what doses it becomes harmful. Everything you read are anecdotes or studies that have holes in them. Who is questioning gravity???