[breadwinner]

I rented an Audi Q7 for a week recently. The drive quality of the car is excellent. But the software is terrible. Just getting CarPlay to work every time is a challenge. I will not be buying an Audi any time soon.

As more and more of the vehicle's experience becomes software controlled, manufacturers who don't have good software development teams are going to lose out. German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software, and they are happy to collectively develop the software [1] as opposed to seeing software as a key differentiator.

[1] https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/25/automotive-industry-lau...

[AlexandrB]

Software is indeed a differentiator, as in I want as little as possible of that shit in my car. Any car where all the controls are on a giant iPad in the middle are a non-starter for me.

[ryandrake]

Physical goods companies just don't get software, and they never seem to be able to do it right. They treat firmware and software like just another line item on the BOM. Like a screw or a silicon gasket: Source it from a cheap supplier, spoon it into the product somewhere on the assembly line, and then never touch it again. As long as it meets a list of checkbox requirements, the quality doesn't matter at all. A car company that obsesses over how nicely the exterior panels fit together will, on the other hand, not even care whether icons and text are aligned on their software.

[FredPret]

The other day I saw a meat thermometer with no readout, only an app.

No!

A good app is more expensive than a good thermometer readout, and will break much sooner.

I'll pay a premium for no-tech products.

[nunez]

Yup.

Case in point: any time the rear view camera comes on in a car commercial. Beatufiul car, awesome interior...potato-quality backup camera.

[AlexandrB]

While you're right that car companies are not good at software, this is almost a blessing at this point. Imagine if they had the software talent of a Google or Microsoft and used it to implement the same fucking awful "enshittification" business models.

[dzhiurgis]

Plot twist - most carmakers button implementations are no better than giant iPad. Special hell to ones making dedicated climate controls using touch surfaces.

[breadwinner]

Software is not an alternative to physical controls. You don't have to copy Tesla in that regard.

[germinalphrase]

The VW Group is putting billions into their partnership with Rivian specifically to improve the software experience (and enabling hardware). It may be the only thing that keeps Rivian alive until (if) the R2 successfully launches to the mass market.

[marssaxman]

Imagine what they could do if they put those billions into building auto control panels that had actual knobs and buttons instead of a glorified iPad. They might actually be able to create a pleasant driving experience!

[constantcrying]

>German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software

VWAG is now on attempt number two of fixing their Software problems.

They tried Cariad, the result was your experience. The next attempt is giving billions to Rivian.

If you believe that these companies do not understand how important software is you are totally delusional. Literally Billions worth of money have they spent trying to fix that.

[ahartmetz]

They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software, and they don't understand and respect the different way of working that you need for software vs hardware.

I've heard somebody describe it as "they are using methods that have been known not to work for 20 years".

[constantcrying]

>They understand the importance of software, but they do not understand software

But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention.

What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad, often cling to outdated methodologies and tend to create overly complex and overly useless systems. There are hundreds of examples for this, throughout European industries and governments. "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.

Consider also the salaries of European Software Engineers, even in the most wealthy countries, like France and Germany, it averages around 50k to 60k, it is not the highly lucrative career it is (was?) in the US.

[ahartmetz]

I am a German software engineer. I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering. But I don't work in automotive, where they do, or used to, overengineer things pretty badly - and in pretty silly ways, too, i.e. not usually defensible in some reasonable way. Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive. But that still doesn't fix the culture. The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.

[constantcrying]

>I dunno, I see more under-engineering than overengineering.

Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess.

>Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive.

Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that is not the case, especially in automotive, where salaries are often union negotiated and Engineers are all on identical pay scales.

>The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.

I just think that there really isn't anybody else. Is there any person somewhere in the German industry who has the ability for leadership and great software expertise? The biggest Software company in Germany is SAP and surely, hiring some SAP manager would have been an even worse decision.

[ahartmetz]

What you saw was just a standard mess - not over-engineering. Same thing that I often see.

Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).

[plqbfbv]

> Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad

> "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.

Anecdata: in my 10+ years experience, the worst UX, UI, code and SWEs I've seen, are all German. I'm not saying there's absolutely no good ones here and there, but in general it seems the love for a very complex written/spoken language (riddled with rules and exception) and bureaucracy has translated 100% into software. The interfaces, the code and coding style most of the times give me a 1980s vibe if I'm lucky, or just scare me off altogether in most cases. The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.

[constantcrying]

Many of the things which work well for developing hardware or Mechatronics work terribly for Software. Hardware development is about rigorous processes, any change to a piece of hardware requires a very complex chain of people, as the impact often is hard to predict and will require changes to many other processes, e.g. manufacturing. I do not think this is the entire explanation though.

The US Software industry has succeeded because it is very open to rapid changes, which the nature of software allows, given the right environment.

>The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.

That is exactly the incompetence I am talking about. This gets extremely bad if governments are developing software solutions, where they outsource to a variety of contractors, who all are somewhat incompetent, but together manage to create a real mess. A mess so bad that every user feels the jank.

[hn_acc1]

Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.

Yes, I get it - deleting 7 buttons gets you that $1M bonus - but it totally borks the system for the everyday driver, who then becomes less loyal.

At this point, there are very, VERY few companies I'm loyal to, because almost none are loyal to me - they'll all give "new users" better deals, and take advantage of any loyalty I have to gouge me and charge me more than a competitor.

[constantcrying]

>Sure - they get the trouble reports. But it's almost as if all the critical decision makers don't drive their own cars in real-life scenarios (drive more expensive cars? Have chaffeurs?) and don't understand how much BETTER it is to have a specific button/dial for "fan speed" and a separate one for temperature, instead of trying to control it via a touchscreen that has 100+ different screens it could be displaying when you want to adjust the temperature / fan speed.

And because all critical people hate physical buttons VWAG all new models and even concept cars now come with physical buttons on the steering wheel and dedicated climate controls outside of the touchscreen? Very weird things going on, where the things which are developed are the exact opposite of what you say the critical decision makers want.

Have you actually looked at new VWAG models or their new concept cars? Because this complaint seems to exist purely in your head.

[hn_acc1]

Agreed with the other response to you - this "reverting to buttons" is a response to the outcry after they all went towards a tesla-like "everything is controlled via the center console" dystopia. Yes, the VERY NEW VWAG models are thankfully reverting back. That doesn't mean they didn't go the other way first.

It's COSTING them $$ to switch back - and they were losing a LOT of buyers over it. If you read any car magazines, people were constantly talking about this. Car makers are finally starting to listen - after several years of failure.

Couple a "slow-to-respond" GUI with a "everything is done via the GUI" and it's horrible.

[ahartmetz]

They are reverting to reason as we speak. All car manufacturers fell victim to touchscreen madness for a while, to varying degrees. A certain conservatism may have helped in the case of VW, as it does with overly aggressive styling trends.