[rmunn]

The two are not comparable behaviors, though. Sarah was doing the opposite of Linus's (mostly former) communication style. She was pushing for a "let's all get along" style, and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style". And you're using that as evidence for an assertion that if a woman in Linus's position was using a "tough love" communication style, she would have gotten pushback from the kernel community. I just don't believe that the evidence supports your argument.

[komali2]

> and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style".

Yes, because that was what was selected for, a toxic masculine form of communication. My point was I believe these emotional outbursts wouldn't have been treated as tough love if Linus had been a woman, they would have been perceived as hysteria, because the community had selected for a 98% male environment of men losing control of their anger at each other.

Now Linus has changed, and so has the community's communication style, and so too has the demographics of the contributors. People of all stripes that were turned out by the old brutish, uncontrolled way of communicating are coming back, and the project is much better for it.

Maybe it's unrelated but this new era of Linux, where the project has a code of conduct, is also the era of record high market share of Linux based desktop operating systems.

[inemesitaffia]

The market share numbers you read are sus.

They are also significantly mostly Chromebooks, Steam Decks and TV's.

Also there's nothing wrong with masculinity of any form.

[komali2]

The version of masculinity portrayed by early James Bond, slapping women at random, nothing wrong with that? The version used to convince hundreds of thousands of German men to give up their lives uselessly in WWI in some kind of manly imperialist crusade, nothing wrong with that?

As a man I completely reject these forms of masculinity. There are plenty of positive aspects of traditional western male culture we can trim out from the fat of historical toxic masculinity. We don't need to keep the terrible parts. They hurt us almost as much as they hurt others.

[inemesitaffia]

I see toxic masculinity as societal expectations/pressure.

Not anything any man whatsoever does in response to them or does in general. (A very problematic remaking of an idea.)

Good or bad.

It's always fascinating you don't see anything about toxic femininity from the people who push the idea of toxic masculinity being things that men do. They tell you it's internalized misogyny (is toxic masculinity internalized misandry? Some will say misandry doesn't exist). It's like the more modern idea that it's men, not patriarchy that oppresses. And that men aren't supposed to have any benefits regardless of evidence they are disadvantaged.

That's how you get “It’s not for further advantaging men. It’s really quite bizarre.” where men are a minority.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydne...

The idea that since men are privileged elsewhere or historically, supporting men today who aren't in any way is "quite bizarre".

Language in its plain form shapes us. That's why I won't take any slander of men or masculinity as ideas while there's cultural bars to doing that to others.

Masculinity is fine.

Antisocial behavior and the ideas that lead to it can be treated without using language that diminishes ones sex/gender or its expression.

This is why I always laugh at talk of representation. The foundational ideas are toxic.

[komali2]

Well at the very least you're thinking about it, that's refreshing.

Toxic masculinity isn't a word meant to diminish the very idea of masculinity, it's meant to describe the forms of it that hurt other people and men. E.g. "tough love" parenting hurts the son and robs the father in the future of a healthy and loving relationship with their son.

Toxic feminity is a concept but you correctly pointed out that it's tied to patriarchal ideology, it basically is a form of feminity that tries to validate patriarchy. The reason it isn't focused on misandry the way toxic masculinity is focused on misogyny, is because in western society, men and the culture of men had the vast majority of power. It's kinda similar to how one can certainly be prejudiced against white people in the west, but you'd have a hard time arguing for the existence of racism against white people in the west, since that word more describes prejudice with the weight of systems behind it. Thus the "n word" is "the n word" while saying "cracker" is generally fine or at least not nearly as socially unacceptable. Does that frustrate you as well? If so, it could be a good starting point for you to learn why your idea that we shouldn't be allowed to criticize "one side but not the other" is a bit wrong headed.

Anyway, so too does toxic masculinity and patriarchy describe something much larger than one man or one family.

If we hesitate to use these words because we're afraid of not being "both sides" enough or "fair," we're robbing ourselves of the opportunity to treat the root cause of, as you say, some antisocial behaviors. E.g. the incel movement is male-driven, the incels who got radicalized and driven to violence were all men, and incel culture latches on to the most toxic aspects of western male culture and uses it as their core ideology. If we want to analyze and perhaps "do something" about the incel movement, we have to be honest with ourselves about it and the history that led to it.

There is no feminine equivalent of this. There's incels that are women, but there's no massive internet movement that touches all aspects of culture and sometimes leads to school shootings. It's an issue of toxic masculinity, among other things, and feminine culture simply doesn't come into the picture. Shall we not talk about it until some more women have done school shootings for misandrist reasons?

That isn't inherently misandrist. You can talk about this without lumping all men into it, the same you can talk about the grave American crime of chattel slavery whole also including the abolitionists who sometimes put their lives on the line to resist it.

[inemesitaffia]

My browser has crashed twice. Maybe it's telling me not to respond but ultimately why would I hold my tongue when I'm free and don't agree? Everything is subject to criticism. Including the ideas of systemic anything and things were engineered not to say.

Unfortunately I have to cut my reply significantly. I addressed every issue before I lost but can't again

The idea both the current ideas and the word on its face itself aren't misandrist begger belief especially with the frequent rejection of gendered descriptions even when other genders are a stark minority. I ultimately reject ideas similar to or lead to "positive masculinity" because it's "progressive" traditional masculinity that only saddles men with gender roles.

[exe34]

Could you mention a few of these "form"s?