[MrVandemar]

> The modern web is opt-in. I build and use sites that aren’t SPAs and shitted up with 3p resources and images and code.

That is a microscopic subset of the modern web.

I don't use Gemini— though I am highly tempted —but I expect some of the attraction is that you can click on any link and pretty much guaranteed not to be socked in the face with a sign-up-for-my-newsletter or cookies-accept-all-yes-later or paragraph-ad-paragraph-ad-paragraph-ad or fiddling with NoScript to find the minimum amount of Javascript that will let you read some article that looks interesting. In Gemini, all that friction just goes away.

[sneak]

You can achieve that on HTTP with a browser extension or customized browser that checks for certain tags in the page, or disables certain features altogether. It isn’t the transport’s fault.

[bayindirh]

With all respect, this viewpoint rivals the infamous Dropbox comment.

[rglullis]

Problem: you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work?

A) Develop a whole new transport protocol that does less than HTTP, develop client applications that use this protocol, convince a sufficient number of people to use this protocol, at least to the point where the majority of your activity happens there?

or

B) Install a handful of browser extensions that block ads and other nuisances on the modern www, and have it working right away?

[bayindirh]

Option “B” implies a cat and mouse game, which you can never win.

You can’t win a game designed and implemented by a mega corporation which is specially made to earn them money and protect their monopoly by being reactive and defending all the time. Instead you have to change the game and play with your own rules.

That’s option “A”.

[rglullis]

> Instead you have to change the game and play with your own rules.

That only works if you can convince the a substantial part of the participants to also play your game.

It's very easy to create an alternative internet where we can take away the power from incumbents. The hard part is creating all the activity that is taking place in the current one.

"Oh, but I can mirror the parts I want from the current internet into the new one!"

Not without playing into the same cat-and-mouse game.

[bayindirh]

Who says I'm trying to pull in everyone from the old internet to the new internet (Gemini)? If the people I care comes along, that's enough for me, and it's up to them.

For example, I switched to Mastodon, and follow people who I really want to follow are already there, plus I met a ton of interesting people, and was able to see real forms of people I followed before, so I have updated my views on them.

> "Oh, but I can mirror the parts I want from the current internet into the new one!"

Personally, I see Gemini or other protocols as equals to HTTP/S. For example, my blog is already text in most cases, has a full content RSS feed, so, also publishing a Gemini version is not mirroring what's on the web already, just adding another medium to my blog.

If I was pumping a 3rd party site I don't own from web to Gemini with a tool, then you'd be right, but publishing to Gemini is not different than having a RSS feed in my case.

[sneak]

Not really. You could have tinyweb/oldweb sites identify themselves with a meta tag, and have a browser that only browses those. A opt-in, web-within-a-web. And turns off js, cookies, and images.

You don’t need another transport protocol.

[Gormo]

How do you stop users who aren't using the custom browser from accessing these 'tinyweb' HTTP sites? How do you prevent content scrapers and search indexers from accessing them? How do you suppress direct incorporation of 'mainstream' web content into 'tinyweb' content?

If your goal is precisely to create an parallel ecosystem that's "airgapped" from the mainstream web, and you're already going to have to develop custom clients, content formats, and server-side configuration to implement it on top of HTTP, and engage in lots of development work to imperfectly isolate the two ecosystems from each other, why wouldn't you just develop a parallel protocol and start with a clean slate?

[bayindirh]

We have Kagi Small Web and Marginalia already, if that's your aim.

[_Algernon_]

The benefit with A is that it also removes higher order effects of the modern web. You may for example remove adverts by installing an ad blocker, but that wont change the incentives that advertising creates (eg. clickbait, engagement maximizing, etc.). With A you can guarantee that the content is not shaped by these incentives.

[rglullis]

> With A you can guarantee that the content is not shaped by these incentives.

Without those incentives, you will quickly find out that there will not be much of an Internet out there.

If you don't believe me, check how many people are on YouTube talking about Open Source, when PeerTube exists and already can reach millions of people.

[_Algernon_]

The internet and web existed for a long time before everything became infested with advertisement: Hobbyist bulletin boards, Wikipedia, the blogosphere, etc. These had enough content that a single person couldn't consume it all in a lifetime.

[Gormo]

> Without those incentives, you will quickly find out that there will not be much of an Internet out there.

Well, there is plenty of interesting content on Gemini. If you're OK with having 50% fewer needles in order to get rid of 99.999999% of the hay, then it's a win.

[shakna]

Considering "B" is becoming less possible, thanks to Google dropping Manifest 2, and going out of their way to enforce a lot more tracking, "A" looks like a lot less effort - you don't have to fight FAANG.

[rglullis]

Chrome is not the only browser out there. Firefox is still a good browser. If you depend on Chromium: Brave is keeping Manifest v2 and their ad-blocking extensions work out of the box.

[shakna]

And HTTP is not the only protocol out there. Plenty of others exist. Like Gemini, that has multiple browser implementations.

What's your point, exactly?

[fiverz]

It's not FAANG anymore, it's GAYMMAN now

[zzo38computer]

In some ways, A is easier, but not in all ways. Each has its own difficulties.

These are not the only possibilities, though; a third possibility might be:

C) Make a simpler set of features which are compatible with some parts of WWW and implement that.

However, you can do two or all three things if you want to do; you are not limited to doing only one thing. I think all three of these (A, B, C) have their own benefits, so you don't need only one.

[uamgeoalsk]

What's more fun? Definitely A.

[rglullis]

You are not solving the stated problem. You are just admitting that working on a new protocol is a masturbatory, "the journey is the reward" kind of exercise.

[uamgeoalsk]

I'm not aiming to solve the stated problem, I'm having fun with gemini.

[Gormo]

The answer is "A". Perhaps some people are avoiding saying this too explicitly because it might sound a bit elitist, but I'll put how I see it as frankly as possible for the sake of clarity.

Gemini is not trying to solve a technical problem with the web. Is trying to solve a cultural problem that arises from the web having become a mass medium, in which every site's focus gradually erodes under pressure to optimize to the lowest common denominator.

Creating a new protocol from the ground up, and requiring users to install a distinct client to access it, isn't just about keeping the software aligned with the project's goals, it's about creating a sufficient threshold of thought and effort for participation that limits the audience to people who are making a deliberate decision to participate. It's about avoiding Eternal September, not about creating a parallel mass-market competitor to the web.

It's not about blocking the annoying ads, popups, and trackers, just to access sites where the content itself is full of spam, scams, political arguments, LLM slop, and other assorted nonsense, and instead creating an ecosystem that's "air-gapped" away from all that stuff, filled with thoughtful content produced deliberately by individuals. It's about collecting needles together away from the hay.