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by ars 337 days ago
Gravitational waves also can not escape. Those waves carry energy, and it's actually energy that can't escape.

The waves are actually made just to the outside of the event horizon.

2 comments

I always understood that the waves are "made" everywhere, but that only the waves outside the even horizon will escape.

Was my understanding wrong all along?

Sort of correct?

Time is halted inside the black hole, so the waves made inside it never show up. Static gravity does show up though, but changes do not.

> The waves are actually made just to the outside of the event horizon.

How do we feel about this vis-a-vis action-at-a-distance?

Gravity does action at a distance. That's its thing.

The reason these waves are not generated from inside the black hole is that, to us, time stops there. For example these black hole mergers aren't actually merging, they are getting closer, and then they time dilate out of existence.

> Gravity does action at a distance. That's its thing.

Why does it need to travel in waves at the speed of light? If one mass moves, a distant mass is unaffected until the information reaches it. That's the opposite of action at a distance.

Your question is confusing. Action at a distance does not imply going faster than light, it means there is some sort of field connecting the two things.
Action at a distance means there is nothing connecting the two things. That's the "distance" part of action at a distance. Modern physics rejects the concept, saying instead that forces are carried by particles from a source to a destination, and the effect of the force is the result of local [opposite of "distant"] interaction with the particles carrying the force.

Compare wikipedia:

> Under our modern understanding, the four fundamental interactions (gravity, electromagnetism, the strong interaction and the weak interaction) in all of physics are not described by action at a distance.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance )

Or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_locality

> This is an alternative to the concept of instantaneous, or "non-local" action at a distance.

> The idea is that for a cause at one point to have an effect at another point, something in the space between those points must mediate the action. To exert an influence, something, such as a wave or particle, must travel through the space between the two points, carrying the influence.

You'll note that "action at a distance" does in fact specifically mean that information travels faster than light!

But this understanding would seem to be incompatible with the idea that the mass inside a black hole can interact gravitationally with anything outside the black hole.

I'm not seeing where any of this requires faster than light travel.

But here's something that might help: We'll use gravity for our example, and I'll be non-technical for ease of typing.

The gravitational force that leaves an object is constant and continuous, it never stops, and it never starts. It exists from before the beginning of time, and it will never stop. The only thing you can do with that force is move it. This is because it's impossible to destroy energy. If you move the mass (the energy actually if you want to be exact) then you have changed the location (but not the strength) of the gravitational force, and that CHANGE travels at the speed of light.

So the gravitational attraction of my hand has, right now, already reached the end of universe, out to infinity. When I move my hand, it sends a tiny gravitational wave that travels at the speed of light, indicating a change in where the force is.

So the gravity inside the black hole has already reached the end of the universe, when that matter starts to clump, a change in the location of the gravity is sent out saying "this gravity is now moving over here".

This is why it feels like it's moving faster than light - it's not, it's already there at the end of the universe.

This is also why the orbit of Mercury is different in relativity, the sun pulls on Mercury where it WAS in the orbit, not where it is (which would require faster than light travel). In Newtonian gravity it's instant (i.e. faster than light).