[Dylan16807]

> "Transitioned against their will" is a very crude way of articulating the tradeoffs of prescribing puberty blockers.

That is an extremely generous interpretation. I think you're giving way too much credit to the average person that uses that argument.

Also I really have to wonder how much of that desistance is giving up versus actually being satisfied.

[Manuel_D]

What do you mean by "giving up"? These patients have the opportunity to transition later in life. Patients were followed up with for 10+ years, well past puberty and into adulthood. The minority that persisted transitioned as adults.

[Dylan16807]

The initial puberty is never going to be undone. If they'd rather live with it now that it happened, then it's great that they're probably not undergoing heavy dysphoria but that doesn't mean it's zero or that this was the best outcome.

[lelanthran]

> The initial puberty is never going to be undone. If they'd rather live with it now that it happened, then it's great that they're probably not undergoing heavy dysphoria but that doesn't mean it's zero or that this was the best outcome.

Well there was never going to be a perfect solution, right? So a solution that results in the most number of satisfied adults is an okay goal.

[Manuel_D]

Given the disparity in life outcomes between trans people and cis people, the idea that the desisters would have been better off transitioning is quite the bold speculation.

[kennywinker]

Seems like you’re saying “society treats trans people badly, so we should prevent people from transitioning”

Coulda said the same about homosexuality ~30 years ago. It’s a bad reason then, it’s a bad reason now.

[Manuel_D]

Again, these people are not prevented from transitioning. A minority, about 20%, do transition as adults. The rest no longer harbor desire to live as a different gender.

[seethedeaduu]

People have explained to you previously why this claim is false, yet you keep repeating it over and over. You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line). You already know this.

[account42]

The part of society that treats them badly are those that encourage the delusions, including but not limited to the doctors that directly profit from that.

[kennywinker]

Accusing the doctors of profiting directly off transitioning… well yes, in the states you have a for-profit medical system. But unless you think oncologists are giving kids cancer for their own profit, you’re being a hypocrite.

In the UK, Canada, most of the rest of the world? Single payer public health systems mean trans healthcare isn’t more profitable than any other type of health care. Doctors have no profit incentive, as there are easier less controversial specialities that have larger patient bases and higher patient thru-put.

[KittenInABox]

How much can the disparity in life outcomes be attributed to a trans person needing to undergo a second puberty in a society where doing so is discriminated against?

I feel like as a society we put trans people in a situation where it is controversial for them to transition as children, but also controversial for them to transition as adults. (The notion of a man in a dress no longer exists if the man never had male puberty, but not only is it controversial for such a boy to never have male puberty, we villainize the now-man's attempts to become a woman!) But then we say that outcomes for trans people are bad so them staying in the closet is good. Which is weird, because the cause of the bad outcomes is that there is no stage of their life where trans people can transition noncontroversially.

[Manuel_D]

Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happily as same-sex attracted cis people.

[kennywinker]

And so how does all of this prove that it should be illegal to speak about transitioning anywhere kids might read? Because that is what is at stake with these rulings

[KittenInABox]

Note how I was focused on the idea that "given the life outcomes of trans people" and that's what you didn't address.