[cjcenizal]

Amazing! This is about the dolphin kick performed on its side, rechristened “the fish kick.” I couldn’t fathom (ha) why the same kick rotated 90 degrees could be faster but it turns out that the kicking motion is constrained by the motion of the water around it. In the dolphin kick, the water moves up and down and is limited by the water’s surface and pool’s bottom. The swimmer frees themself of these constraints by turning on their side.

[bravesoul2]

Does that give advantage to those in the middle lanes?

[foobarbecue]

Middle lanes are faster, and for some reason swimmer with the fastest record gets the middle in most events, which always seemed weird to me -- it's a positive feedback system. Seems like you should give the advantage to the people who are behind, not ahead... but that's common in sports and in modern society for some reason.

[wavemode]

Giving advantages to the better participants is a practice common across a variety of racing sports. The idea being that, if you could earn an advantage by doing worse, then in a race where you know at a certain point that you can't medal anyway, it would be optimal to just intentionally slow down to try to come in last and secure an advantage in the next race.

[esperent]

I've heard this said before, and I understand the reasoning, but I don't think it's good enough. We should be aiming for equality at the start of a race, not giving the better people a head start. If qualifying races are broken in the way, then just randomize the starting order. Literally do a random draw as people are walking/driving up to the start. It would make the events far more interesting as well.

[sebastiennight]

As a counterpoint, think about the balancing act of trying to place as well as you can in the semifinals while not over-exhausting yourself to the point where you've got no energy left for the final.

I think this dynamic is way more interesting than what you'd get if semifinal rankings had no impact ; that latter scenario would basically result in a Dutch auction on effort, and likely suppress performance on the qualifying races.

[mbreese]

Let’s consider auto sport. For most races, there are fixed starting positions that are determined by qualifying. Qualification is generally done by racing around the track as fast as you can without any other racer on the track or blocking you. The faster you qualify, the better your starting position. The better your starting position, the more advantage you have in the main race. If you are trying to figure out who the better racer is, it’s not a bad system. Everyone is incentivized to do as well as they can at each step.

But, I think there is another motivation to consider. I don’t think the point is necessarily to find the best racer (or swimmer in your case). Instead, I think the point may be to make it so that the best swimmers can swim their best race. The goal isn’t just to see who can win, but to see if the winners can beat a larger record. You want the best racers to have the best chance at performing their best. When the best swimmers are in the middle lanes, they have the best conditions for breaking other records.

It’s not the most fair system. Track is probably a little better, but even then, the lane you are in has certain advantages and disadvantages.

[Wowfunhappy]

You could make it based on past performance at a given level. So your position in a qualifying race depends on your placement in last year's qualifying race. Your position at the final Olympic event depends on your placement at the same event in the last Olympics.

If it's your first time at a given event, I guess keep whatever we do now or make it random. The reason for this system would be to make surprise wins from less-known people more likely, which I'd think would be desirable.

[chongli]

It’s not strange at all. People want to see records broken. Levelling the playing field works against that goal.

Sports is an aspirational medium of entertainment. People want to see excellence. They want to see dynasties. Too much fairness and balance leads to loss of interest.

Look at the NBA. We’re in a period of unprecedented parity and balance. It seems like every year brings a different championship team. Ratings are way down and loads of people are complaining about the CBA which was written with the goal of bringing more parity to the league, a goal it’s quite obviously achieving!

[michaelterryio]

On the other hand the NFL’s hard salary cap and consequent parity is what has made it the most popular US professional sporting league. People in the US don’t want to see big markets buy their way to championships.

[darepublic]

as an adult the NFL is the most watchable professional sport for me, despite my city having no NFL team. every year I can just choose a playoff bound team to root for based on their style or storyline. And each game is meaningful whereas the other professional sports have regular seasons that just drag on and on. also love the one and done knockout playoff format.

[Xss3]

You find 100 commercials per 11 minutes of gameplay watchable? https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-comm...

I always thought that Americans just had the NFL on in the background or something and used it as an excuse to be social. But I'm realising I'm likely wrong about that reading comments like this.

I'm guessing you're just a vast amount more accepting of a high ad to content ratio than other cultures?

[whateveracct]

I know that's the narrative about the NBA lately but it's just that - narrative.

It's far from proven that the short-lived "parity" that has emerged in the aftermath of the KD Warriors dynasty is the cause of down ratings.

I do personally dislike it though and find the parity via CBA to be artificial. It just causes continuity on a contender to be untenable.

And continuity is what makes for good basketball, hence why dynasties are so fun to watch. It's not just that they win, a lot. It's that they have a consistent style of play with a consistent cast of players (stars and role players) that fans get to know over the course of those dynastic years.

[ninalanyon]

> People want to see records broken.

Not always. Some of the most prestigious horse races in the UK, US, and Australia ar handicap races. The horse that is most successful carries the most weight. The handicapper attempts to create a dead heat.

[Scarblac]

It's strange to reward slower contestants in sports.

[pfortuny]

IIRC Ecclestone suggested getting rid of qualifiers and just putting the F1 cars n the inverse order of their last race. This idea was in order to get more overtakes (the best parts of F1 races). I think it would be great.

[retroflexzy]

There was a period in World Rally Championship history when the top drivers would manipulate the starting order for the following day's stages by intentionally slowing down before the end of the stage. It was bizarre to watch teams intentionally give up 10+ second margins when stage wins can come down to half-second gaps.

[seabass-labrax]

In the BTCC, there was a similar situation for a while: in one of the races, the best-perfoming half of the pack would start at the back of the grid, and the worst-performing half at the front of the grid - but in-order within the two groups. However, since 2006 there has been some randomness added to the grid positioning, which makes attempting to manipulate it a risky business.

[conradev]

In F1 they also introduced DRS in 2011 to get more overtakes

[bravesoul2]

Makes sense. More interest in F1. More money for Bernie.

[philistine]

1. Ecclestone has been out of the sport for nearly a decade.

2. A race weekend is a three-day affair, with tickets sold for each day. What do you do on Saturday if there are no qualifs?

[dclowd9901]

Not that strange. Handicaps are quite common.

[bravesoul2]

Just thinking if it's done F1 style it is fair. It's fresh at each competition.

If it's based on past times that creates possibly a feedback loop but depends on details. E.g. can a swimmer use a non competition record towards their qualification.

[sim7c00]

yeah, otherwise good ppl will do bad in qualifiers to get good position...

[koolba]

Reminds me of the final boss in Smash Bros. If you purposefully let him whip you at first, the adaptive play would nerf him enough to let you easily finish him.

[bluedino]

Works for Mario Kart

[bell-cot]

Track & Field races stagger the starting positions, to compensate for the outer lanes of the track being longer. American football has the teams switch goals every quarter, to even out the advantages of having the wind at your team's back.

Why should swimming be different?

[danso]

NFL playoffs give home field advantage to the teams with the better regular season records.

[kqr]

Your examples are about making circumstances equivalent, thus canceling out any advantage. There's no way to e.g. switch lanes in swimming so we're bound to have some contestants advantaged.

In cases where some contestants have to be advantaged, the conventional solution in sports is to advantage the ones who performed better according to some metric.

I think it's unfair to reward those who were lucky or already advantaged somehow, but my wife who has a background in track and field thinks anything else would be unfair.

[bell-cot]

> ... no way to e.g. switch lanes in swimming so ...

Why couldn't you shorten the pool, from a swimmer's PoV, by putting (say) a very shallow plywood box against the wall of the pool at one end of each "non-center" lane? Yes, you might need to do some math & stats to figure out just how shallow a box. Or, you could use a feedback loop - boxes start very shallow, leading swimmers get to pick a lane, boxes adjusted, repeat.

[necovek]

I believe the main reasoning why this is fair is that this advantage is earned.

Would it be fairer to use randomly assigned lane? Then you get almost equal competitors in advantageous and disadvantageous lanes?

Isn't the top result in a year also used for qualification purposes (and thus lane assignment) for top-level competitions? Basically, you earn a spot in the best lane throughout the calendar year.

[darepublic]

if there is an advantage to a lane in swimming can't we add a certain small amount of time to compensate

[wnc3141]

It also focuses the race around the center of the pool which works from a visual standpoint. Favorites in the middle, dark horses surrounding at the edge

[slwvx]

In US sports it is very common in the tournament for a single season, or in a single event to reward better performance earlier in that same season or same tournament. I like this because it incentivizes doing well early in a season.

On the other hand, the NFL and NBA give better draft odds for to teams who did badly in the previous season. I also like this because it allows teams who don't have the (comparatively) massive resources of a team based in a large market to compete. This is NEGATIVE feedback, and of course fans of teams in large markets don't like it. Even so, negative feedback is the core of making a stable system.

To summarize, in a single season or in a single tournament, doing well is rewarded. Across seasons, some sports have mechanisms to help poor teams become better.

[GolfPopper]

It seems like the objectively fair solution is that everyone swims the exact same lane in a still pool and is timed.

[elmomle]

Or more simply (and with fewer alterations to how swimming competitions work today), just have a couple of unused lanes on the outside of the pool.

[trillic]

This already happens in SCM and SCY competitions as many short course pools are just the short side of a long course pool.

[necovek]

To avoid turbulence, you'd have to skip lanes (or make them very wide) and allow enough space between the pool side walls and outermost lanes, right?

[rpearl]

this is what is done in most major competitions already

[onlypassingthru]

Seeing the other competitors right next to you is often a factor in how hard one pushes themselves in a race, no matter the species.

[jack_pp]

Fewer records, fairer competition. I'd make that tradeoff

[necovek]

Is it fair if we get the objectively fastest swimmers to go slower so competition is closer?

Note that the advantaged swimmers in middle lanes are really objectively faster: they earn their spot through year long competitions and in-event qualifications. Sure, they will be an odd case or two.

See https://www.quora.com/How-are-the-lane-assignments-chosen-in...

[scott_w]

But spectators won’t, and we are what fund sport, ultimately.

[monkeywork]

You'd make that trade off? Do you swim competively or how many events do you watch per year?

I mean I'd make the tradeoff that there be no forward passes in the NFL but I'm not a follower of that sport so I'd likely not put that opinion out there because frankly I don't care.

[Y_Y]

Or a cylindrical geometry, so there is symmetry between lanes.

[sebastiennight]

I vote in favor of this idea and will even contribute $5 towards building the necessary O'Neill cylinder.

Now we only need to get Elon on board to fund the rest.

[vikingerik]

If slower qualifiers got better position, then what you'd get would be qualifiers deliberately trying to sandbag themselves for that. Such an incentive is never a good look for sports.

[smokel]

> for some reason

It is most likely because we are bad at pattern matching. By default we reward anything we perceive as positive, regardless of who we think is causing it or what the long-term consequences might be.

It takes some education to recognize the long-term effects of rewarding the wrong things, and then it takes even more education to not worry about the very long-term effects at all.

[yowzadave]

Does this effect taper off as you get further away from the edges of the pool? Wondering if you could eliminate the unfairness by just leaving a few lanes empty on each edge of the pool.

[xarope]

Traditionally the middle lanes have less turbulence so the faster swimmers get them so they can swim faster, whereas us slowpokes get the side lanes.

And I guess it looks good on TV to have those nice chevrons

[dsamarin]

I want to see world records get broken

[jstanley]

> Seems like you should give the advantage to the people who are behind, not ahead...

Lol? How did you work that one out?

By extension, should the olympics be comprised entirely of each country's worst athletes?

[mojomark]

The original comment is likely accurate regarding the benefit to ditectly trailing swimmers, but probably not trailing swimmers where shed vortices are stable in adjacent lanes where shed vortices interact chaotically.

[giardini]

Alright, so we're agreed: the only solution is to build every swim-racing pool of individual lanes with solid walls between each!8-)) All lanes are then equivalent.

[necovek]

And if someone in lane 7 speeds ahead, they are likely not seeing any of the turbulence from other swimmers either

[messer979]

“To him who has much, even more will be given. To him who has little, even what he has will be taken away”

[onlypassingthru]

Any turbulence created by waves and vortices smashing into hard surfaces is going to slow the swimmer down. To paraphrase an old adage, smooth is fast.

[mojomark]

I'm inclined to concur with onlypassingthrough. If the resulting wake is similar to fish locomotion (e.g. thunniform or similar) vortices will shed off in a Karmen Vortex Street that spreads laterally with distance behind the swimmer (potentially into other lanes, and propulsive efficiency of propulsors are generally less efficient in turbulant vice laminar open-water flow... but not always, it can depend on the 'structure' [how chaotic] the flow is).

The magnitude of the energy in that turbulent wake will depend on how efficiently the oscillating fin interacts with water over time to produce forward thrust. The cool thing about oscillating foils as opposed to rotating thrusters, is that when the fin 'swoops' once it creates Vortex 'A' spinning clockwise, and when it 'swoops' back the result would be a Vortex 'B' spinning counterclockwise, and the two vortices will partially cancel out. That cancellation serves to recover energy from Vortex 'A' and the energy is transferred back into forward thrust.

In other words, fish tails create trails of contrarotating vortices and continually push off of them. It's like walking up a springy staircase, where each step you make, a little energy is recovered to bounce you up to the next step.

In theory, if you had a swimmer in front of you, generating a Karmen Vortex Street and not effectively canceling out those vortices, but instead just shedding vortices, you can use the energy from the swimmer in front of you to 'spring' yourself forward - barely using any energy yourself. Those complex hyrdodynamic relationships could be why some swimmers/flyers tend to fly in specific formations with other animals in their school/flock.

Bottom line, I would bet that any residual vortices that spread into adjacent swimming lanes will tend to interact chaotically and result in unstructured turbulance, which should yield less optimal swimming conditions for swimmers in those lanes.

[pdonis]

> you can use the energy from the swimmer in front of you to 'spring' yourself forward

When I swam competitively in the early 1980s, we did this during workouts; we'd all swim in a line with very close spacing, and switch off who was in front after every lap (two lengths--this was in a 25 meter pool). Being in front you could feel the extra work you were doing.

[onlypassingthru]

>you can use the energy from the swimmer in front of you to 'spring' yourself forward

This bears out in the real world. Much like a peloton in cycling, swimming directly behind another swimmer can be far more energy efficient than swimming by yourself and feel like you are getting pulled along for the ride.

[nradov]

Even swimming slightly offset another swimmer saves significant energy. It also reduces the chance of getting kicked in the face. We do this when possible during triathlon open water swims.

[analog31]

Indeed, and as a consequence there are rules for who gets which lane.

[fracus]

You can't reward failure in competition. You will get people purposely going slower to get the middle lanes. What they could swim in a pool in which they aren't using the outer lanes, so bigger pools, or less swimmers.

[pfooti]

They should just make the pool wider with a big unused area on either side.

[xarope]

the rescue/combat side stroke is very efficient too, and that's due to the very large kick you can use since you are sideways