[McDyver]

I had removed the comment, but you replied in the meantime. I didn't want to add further fuel to this.

But since you only picked up on that: what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians, is exactly what you are describing, but from the other side. It's not hypothetical. It's happening. When will they stop?

[thyristan]

To be fair, the Israeli side had stopped until the Hamas reignited the conflict. Same in the Westbank, there was peace until another intifada started. Each side keeps giving the other side reasons to continue the conflict, especially when there is a long-enough period of quiet.

[McDyver]

That's exactly true, and it's very sad.

[reliabilityguy]

So, what are the actions that Palestinian government took to stop Israel? I mean, they were there to sign Oslo Accords, right? So, clearly they have a way to communicate and discuss issues to end this conflict. No?

The open secret that for some reason nobody is willing to acknowledge is that Palestinians will never accept even the borders of 1948 — for Palestinians it’s all or nothing. You won’t find even a single popular politician that is okay with peace deal for a simple reason — they do not want it.

So, what do you do?

[DiogenesKynikos]

Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders,[0] while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders.

0. Which you referred to as the borders of 1948.

[reliabilityguy]

> Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders

Nope. They refused any deal, including the ones with a land swaps and capital in East Jerusalem.

> while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders.

Israelis offered land for peace multiple times. Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt. Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay" government-funded fund to incentivize more Palestinians to commit terrorist attacks.

[DiogenesKynikos]

The Palestinians offered peace many times. The Israelis refused. It goes both ways.

One of the reasons why the Palestinians refused the Israeli offers was because the Israelis never offered the 1967 borders, which is what the Palestinians want. This is the exact opposite of what you're saying.

> Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt.

The difference is that the Egyptians had a serious army that scared the bejeezus out of the Israelis is 1973. Israel only respects the language of force.

> Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay"

Israel has a massive "pay for slay" program. It's called the IDF.

[reliabilityguy]

> The Palestinians offered peace many times.

Can you list those "many times"?

> The difference is that the Egyptians had a serious army that scared the bejeezus out of the Israelis is 1973. Israel only respects the language of force.

You mean the one that Israel won? You do realize that your argument holds no water for the simple reason that there was like 5-6 years between the war of 1973 and siding of the peace deal? If Egyptian army was so strong, why did they left Sinai in Israeli hands after the war of 1973? If this army was so strong why did they need to sign a peace deal at all?

> Israel has a massive "pay for slay" program. It's called the IDF.

Can you point me to the part of this "program" that increases the pay to IDF soldiers with number of Palestinians they kill?

I think it will be hard for you to find this part for a simple reason -- it does not exist. Service in the IDF is not voluntary, and the salary for every soldier is the same.

Palestinian government-sponsored terrorism is completely different: first of all, you are not forced to participate, and second -- the more you kill, the more money you get.

So, you can continue with these false equivalences but they hold no water, and easy to dispute.

[DiogenesKynikos]

> Can you list those "many times"?

The Palestinians spent most of the 1980s trying to simply get the Israelis to come to the table and talk, and 1990s trying to get the Israelis to agree to a Palestinian state on 1967 borders. The Palestinians were consistently more interested in a peace deal than the Israelis were. The simple reason is that Israel suffers very few negative consequences from its occupation of the Palestinian territories. It has very little incentive to make any peace deal.

> You mean the one that Israel won? You do realize that your argument holds no water for the simple reason that there was like 5-6 years between the war of 1973 and siding of the peace deal?

Israel came very close to defeat in 1973, and had to rely on an unprecedented resupply effort by the United States, which replaced nearly the entire Israeli tank force and much of the airforce within days. The Israelis were aware of their vulnerability after 1973, which is why they entered negotiations with the Egyptians. Negotiations take time, which is why the whole process took several years.

> Can you point me to the part of this "program" that increases the pay to IDF soldiers with number of Palestinians they kill?

The IDF is a massive organization that kills hundreds of Palestinians every day. Every week is another October 7th for the Palestinians, for two years in a row. But you're quibbling about the details of how IDF soldiers get paid, as if that made any moral difference.

> So, you can continue with these false equivalences

I'm not trying to draw any equivalence. The IDF is a thousand times more evil than any Palestinian organization.

[McDyver]

What I did was remove my comment :)

Obviously there is no straightforward solution, and I don't want to fuel this anymore.