[kunzhi]

> At its heart, education is a project of guiding learners to exercise their own agency in the world. Through education, learners should be empowered to participate meaningfully in society, industry, and the planet.

I agree but I have never seen an education system that had this as a goal. It's also not what society or employers actually want. What is desired are drones / automatons that take orders and never push back. Teaching people about agency is the opposite of that.

We are so stuck in a 19th century factory mindset everywhere, GenAI is just making it even more obvious.

[jjmarr]

Employers want a high-agency leadership class and drones for the individual contributors.

There are systems that nurture agency and leadership. They are the private schools and the Ivy League universities. And many great companies.

Most people don't want to be leaders and be judged based on impact. They want to be judged based on effort. They followed all the rules when writing their essay and should get an A+ even though their essay is unconvincing. If they get a bad mark, their response is to create a petition instead of fixing the problems.

Maybe we should attack our culture of busywork and stop blaming educators for failing to nurture agency.

[em-bee]

the education i received in germany did have this goal. the teachers had this goal, and i have the impression that the teachers and schools my kids go to have this goal as well. i can't say how universal that is, but it the opposite is not universal either.

the problem is that the goals are not effectively implemented. maybe it's more a dream than a goal, because the teachers and schools don't know how to actually reach that goal.

meaningful participation in society is often reduced to the ability to get a job by those outside of school, so you are right about employers. at least the large ones. unfortunately that works against them, because the current generation of juniors doesn't even want to learn anything. they are drones that just want to get paid, but are not motivated to learn what they need to do their job better.

[x3qt]

Just yesterday, I talked to a neighbor who has two kids attending a local school in Mitte. He told me that the children are constantly indoctrinated into group conformity, obedience to authority, and fear of "wrong-think," with a good splash of wokie-talkie on top of it. To me, that sounds like a complete erasure of agency. Schools must provide knowledge, not override the nurture given by parents.

I have personally observed how locals are bullied by overseas guests and choose a delusional escape into virtue signaling rather than defending themselves. I consider German upbringing to be that of a defeated people.

[em-bee]

I consider German upbringing to be that of a defeated people

i don't know what you are trying to imply here. how should the feeling of defeat affect the upbringing? (i mean,i am sure there would be an effect, but how would that look like?)

what i can tell you is that the sentiment i experienced was not defeat. after all this is neither our, nor our parents, (and for the current generation also not their grandparents) experience. the feeling we were taught was that of embarrassment, of how could we let that happen and consequently the need to understand how we can avoid that from ever happening again. except for a minority or right wing sympathizers that we keep a close eye on.

[x3qt]

I think that the Allied victors laid the foundation of the current German education system on initial denazification and subsequent extreme pacification, to such a degree of impotence that people refuse to defend themselves even when they are fully capable of neutralizing a criminal, preferring to become victims rather than use force.

[em-bee]

i don't have this feeling at all. on what experience do you base that on?

[x3qt]

I’ve seen multiple instances of robberies where the attacker was a head shorter and could have been easily stunned, or worse, with a single hit, yet people gave away their valuables because even the thought of using violence is taboo. Of course, the police always say, “Just file a complaint,” which never results in anything. It’s not a joke: even if violence is used purely to stop a criminal, the police will prosecute you, lol. I’m not American, but I like the idea that one could defend themselves and their property using all means necessary.

[scarecrowbob]

While you are likely correct about systems, I have known quite a few individual educators who have the goal of helping their fellow humans learn about their agency in the world.

[TheNewsIsHere]

I attended a public school system which, while at times did falter in various ways, did a fairly good job meeting its stated mission that was more or less exactly that.

I witnessed far more personal political pressure and cajoling than corporate/future employer. Where I went to school the pressure on schools was usually from parents, students, and local groups concerned with civil matters. I had (until recently) indirect (and sometimes direct) exposure to this because one of parents was an educator and a senior member of their department in an adjoining district to the one I attended.

Where I went to college, it was always very clear to me what was shaped by industry vs. research and academia. I went to a research university for an uncommon hard-science degree and so there was a lot of employer interest, but the university cleverly drew a paywall around that and businesses had to pay the university to conduct research (or agree to profit sharing, patent licensing, etc). There was a clear, bright line separating corporate/employer interest from the classroom.