[scott_w]

This simply isn’t true. Yes, teenagers are morons by the standard of a well adjusted 30 year old, but they’re more than capable of understanding consequences for their actions.

I hate to sound like my parents/grandparents but I absolutely knew that causing millions of pounds of damage and attempting to blackmail a major corporation could have huge negative consequences for people and myself at 17.

[martinald]

But it is very well understood and accepted that teenage - especially male prefrontal cortexes don't fully develop until mid 20s.

I'm sure they knew it could have major consequences, but when your risk taking pedal (limbic system) pedal is pushed to the floor all the time and your risk avoidance brakes (prefrontal cortex) is not fully developed that all goes out of the window, not unlike being intoxicated.

For example, I shudder to think how aggressively I drove when I first got a car - and I was very sensible compared to many people I knew! I hadn't actually drove for a couple of decades since I was an adolescent until very recently and I had to rent a car for something, but it was absolutely startling to me my frame of mind vs the last time I drove. All I can remember back then that driving was extremely fun and the more windy the road the better, this time all I could see was loads of giant risks.

Now if you compare this to the whole population, if you have a segment of it that are much more risk seeking either through genetics or environmental reasons, you can see the problem.

You can see this in all kinds of statistics at a societal level - crime, accidents, addiction risk. It is all much higher in these age ranges (and especially skewed towards males).

I don't think we should just dismiss good science like this "because I knew better". It has always been a very grave societal issue that has tended to be ignored or downplayed.

Obviously this doesn't give people carte blanche to do what they want - I'm not saying that. But hopefully societal views will catch up a bit with society and we can actually do something about it.

[scott_w]

> Young people have little fear of repercussion as they cant really fathom the consequences.

> But it is very well understood and accepted that teenage - especially male prefrontal cortexes don't fully develop until mid 20s.

Your statement here does not mean that the statement I quoted above is true. Just because biology predisposes one to doing stupid shit does not mean young people are incapable of understanding consequences and repercussions. The fact that most of us here never went out to cause millions of pounds of damage is testament to that.

[BoorishBears]

I don't understand why clarifying young folks are capable of understanding consequences and repercussions, but will underperform at doing so for a myriad of reasons, including real physical differences in brain structure, should be this contentious.

[scott_w]

Because we’re talking in the context of young people who executed a multi-stage criminal enterprise causing millions of pounds of damage, harming multiple companies and their customers, AND TRIED TO EXTORT THE CEO FOR PROFIT.

This is not “behavioural immaturity” associated with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex!

[martinald]

Actually, this is exactly what underdeveloped prefrontal cortex looks like at scale. You're describing sophisticated technical execution combined with catastrophically poor judgment.

They bragged about it to the BBC as well. This is not a clever strategy to not get caught. Neither is not immediately fleeing to another jurisdiction than the very one you committed the crimes in.

This is what happens when you have extremely smart kids with high risk-taking tolerance. If they weren't as intellectually gifted, they might be driving a souped up 15 year old Golf like a maniac round country roads - but because they have these technical capabilities, their poor judgment scales up to cause millions in damage instead of just getting themselves arrested with a few grams.

[scott_w]

That’s a massively reductionist view of this. Maybe prefrontal development played a role but so many things are part of this you can’t just say the two statements being put: one by OP and one by you.

“Teenagers don’t understand repercussions”

“Teenagers have underdeveloped prefrontal cortex”

These might have been FACTORS in this specific case but the former is not generally true. The latter is true but it’s not the full story. It cannot, on its own, explain why these kids committed a major criminal enterprise.

That is what I take issue with.

[michaelt]

There are some statements that, though reasonable in isolation, are almost always heard from people teeing up a really bad opinion.

For example, if someone says "I'm not racist, but" I'm already rolling my eyes before they've even said what they're about to say.

Similarly, when some people hear "prefrontal cortexes don't fully develop until" they start rolling their eyes pre-emptively at the infantilising, anti-personal-responsibility take that usually follows. Even if it didn't, in your case.

[scott_w]

My issue is that their statement about prefrontal cortex development is being used in the context of “young people don’t understand repercussions,” when the two things are not actually related. Not least because young people clearly CAN understand repercussions.

[MisterTea]

Maybe I didn't phrase that quite right. I knew a kid who was caught by the FBI carding at just 14. He was totally aware of what he was doing but did not comprehend the severity of his crimes. Like I remember him just casually dismissing it as some cute prank. Apparently he was arrested, had his computer confiscated, then banned from using the Internet or a computer. I only heard that through others who knew him personally so who knows but I never saw him online after that incident (irc/icq/aim days.)

So with that story, some teenagers don't or can't comprehend the severity of their crimes or the trial and punishment that ensues. To them it's just a dumb credit card company write off and a free laptop or whatever.

I'll admit, I used to push limits. Used to do silly things with misfit friends. Got into a little incident where we pissed off some dudes, one who had a gun (no one shot but man having one pointed at you is scary AF.) Learned real fast not to do stupid "funny shit" that was really just jerk behavior. We never expected to have a gun pointed at us.

That's what teenagers do, they push limits without thinking because they're rebellious. Looking to carve out their independence. Sometimes, they learn the hard way. That's just life.

[scott_w]

I’m just going to point out that your story shows two different things:

1. A person who didn’t understand consequences.

2. A person of similar age who did.

Which is kinda my entire point.

[MisterTea]

I don't understand where you got 1 and 2 from. They're the same story, teenagers doing dumb shit without understanding what would come of it. I didn't understand what you're not getting here

[scott_w]

> Maybe I didn't phrase that quite right. I knew a kid who was caught by the FBI carding at just 14... Like I remember him just casually dismissing it as some cute prank.

> Got into a little incident where we pissed off some dudes, one who had a gun... Learned real fast not to do stupid "funny shit" that was really just jerk behavior.

Case 1, the kid didn't learn. Case 2, you learnt. By the way, both of these can—and do—apply to adults. If "young people can't consider consequences," then you would have went out and got shot and probably wouldn't be here telling me about this story.

[MisterTea]

I did not mod you down so I am not the only one confused. Yes I learned, but how on earth can you assume the kid who got arrested didn't? He was in fact arrested for that crime and never heard from again. I don't know if he learned but he certainly might have.

[stackskipton]

>I hate to sound like my parents/grandparents but I absolutely knew that causing millions of pounds of damage and attempting to blackmail a major corporation could have huge negative consequences for people and myself at 17.

Sure but not all do. If you look at murders, most of them are in 15-24 range in United States so them being 17, 19 and 20 tracks with what you expect.

[scott_w]

And yet most 15-24 year olds are not committing murder, this sentence:

> Young people have little fear of repercussion as they cant really fathom the consequences.

is not true.

[immibis]

The probability they'll try to teach you to obey the law instead of locking you in a cell for life is significantly higher when you're 17 than when you're 35. Even better if you're 13, though.

[scott_w]

I’m a bit torn on that, honestly. Were this an embarrassing hack like the ones I read about as a teenager, I’d agree. However, they caused millions of pounds of damage to multiple companies (and their customers) and attempted to blackmail the CEO for profit.

I’d be amazed, and I think the public would be outraged, if they got a slap on the wrist for this.