[wtallis]

So, is this an app that bundles it's own X11, or is it using a Quartz/Cocoa backend for GTK?

EDIT: I downloaded it, and the app bundle doesn't seem to have an X11, so that's nice. However, upon firing it up, it throws up a splash screen in front of all other applications. Who still thinks that's acceptable behavior on a multitasking operating system? Also, the app quits when the last window is closed, which isn't how OS X apps are supposed to behave.

[btn]

> Also, the app quits when the last window is closed, which isn't how OS X apps are supposed to behave.

This is almost consistent with Apple's HIG: "In general, quit when users close the last open window in your app. [...] If users close the last remaining document window in a document-based app and switch to another app, it’s appropriate to quit the app" (emphasis added). [1]

[1]: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserEx...

[nsxwolf]

That's odd. I don't think I've ever seen this behavior. I just tried it with Pages and the application remained open.

[needle0]

The behavior in question is actually very new, as it became part of the guidelines only starting with 10.7 Lion. As Lion brought forth a whole lot of similar behavioral changes (which often conflict with those of either Windows/Linux or older versions of OS X), very few apps have adapted to the new rules so far.

[akldfgj]

I think the new rules assume that apps are persisting any (invisible) state across quit/launch.

[bigiain]

iPhoto has done it forever. It still feels "wrong" to me though. I guess I understand the reasoning behind it, and iOS mostly works that way (at least as far as a normal user will notice), but so many Mac OS apps - both current and historical - have _not_ worked that way, so iPhoto always seems strange to me.

[misnome]

iPhoto is a single-window application - only one window is ever used. Such applications usually (and should) quit on closing the main window. Immediate examples I can think of are System Preferences, calculator, but there are many more examples

Anything that allows working with multiple documents should remain open even with no windows (or unless auto-killed).

[jarcoal]

Give it a try with TextEdit and you'll see the expected response.

[tuananh]

Cmd W closes the document without quitting TextEdit. just tested on lion.

Mac is document-based instead of application-based so closing document doesn't quit the app. it only does if multiple documents doesn't make sense to the application like System Preferences.

[nspragmatic]

You're doing it wrong.

This is the HIG quote from above:

> "In general, quit when users close the last open window in your app. [...] If users close the last remaining document window in a document-based app and switch to another app, it’s appropriate to quit the app" (emphasis added).

In TextEdit, close the last document and then _switch to another app_. You're missing the last step.

[tuananh]

did it again adding the last step (switching to other app), still there though - Lion 10.7.4

[drivebyacct2]

It seems to be one of non-Mac users biggest complaints but I love it. I can close my Chrome windows and remove the clutter without having to pay the cost of having it start up again. It's a good-bad habit because then I go to Linux and Ctrl+W all my tabs and then hit Ctrl+T and realize my mistake.

[archangel_one]

The thing that confuses me the most about it is when I close the last window of an app, 95% of the screen shows the app beneath it but the menus are still for the app I just closed. I guess that's partly a crossover with the focus model as well, but it's just a bit alien to me. As you say, it's really a non-Mac user thing; I only use OSX 5% of the time at work so never really get used to it.

[vacri]

I really don't see much difference in clutter between minimising to the taskbar and having an icon on the dock.

[Lockyy]

It's odd to hit the x to close and the program actually just minimizing. Odder still was that when I hit minimize, by default, it minimized to a separate icon to the main application. I changed to it minimizing into the dock icon. But the inconsistent behavior of the x button means sometimes it and the _ button (I can't call these close and minimize on this system because that's not what they are anymore) have similar, if not identical, functionality.

[drivebyacct2]

Huh? I don't think you understand what I'm talking about...

[samuellb]

To prevent Firefox from closing, go to about:config and set browser.tabs.closeWindowWithLastTab to false. This is one of the first things I do when I (re)install a computer, I don't like the default behaviour either :)

[protolif]

Do you guys remember how unusable the previous version was? I mean, this feels like splitting hairs compared to that.

[mbell]

What i find annoying in OS X is flipping over to a desktop, telling an app to start (with the hope that it starts in that desktop), then flipping over to another desktop to keep doing stuff while it loads, only to find that the app has decided to start on your current desktop, not the one you launched it in.

[gosub]

This also happens to me in GNOME (v 2.30.11, Debian 6.0.5).

[naz]

> Also, the app quits when the last window is closed, which isn't how OS X apps are supposed to behave.

If anything, they're ahead of the curve. Most Apple apps are beginning to follow this behavior: App Store, Calculator, Contacts, Dictionary, DVD Player, FaceTime, Font Book, Game Center, Garage Band, Image Capture, iPhoto, and so on.

[cmelbye]

Notice how most (all?) of those are single window applications.

[buu700]

So is Gimp, with the release of 2.8 (well, the option's there anyway).

[_1]

But it's still a document-based application. Those, in general, stay active even if all the documents are closed.

[timdiggerm]

Not in the new Apple way. I believe the idea is that they'll save their state but close.

[agscala]

Right, but does opening more than one window for a single application count? Two chrome windows for instance.

[ken]

Apple's OS X Human Interface Guidelines[1]: "In general, quit when users close the last open window in your app."

[1]: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExp...

[flatline3]

"In apps that are not document-based ..."

GIMP is document-based.

[poblano]

Like iTunes.

[btn]

Keep reading...

"If an app continues to perform some function when the main window is closed, it might be appropriate to leave it running after the user closes the main window. For example, iTunes continues to play after the user closes the main window."

[sliverstorm]

Who still thinks that's acceptable behavior

Adobe still does, and of all apps, GIMP is going to be one of the most likely to emulate them.

[MikeCapone]

Photoshop's splash screen doesn't stay on top of all other windows and steal focus, at least not in the version that I have.

If anyone from GIMP is reading this, I strongly recommend that you fix that or at least allow us to disable the splash screen. Thank you.

[w1ntermute]

Have you tried this: http://kuoi.com/~kamikaze/read.php?id=129

Looks kind of old, but it might still work.

[graue]

Off-topic rant: "Someone with spare time on their hands feel like adding a 'Disable splash screen' checkbox to the preferences panel?" That suggestion illustrates a common anti-pattern in open source software. Broken behavior should simply be fixed, not receive an extra option to turn it off. No one wants to have to check an "unbreak my software" checkbox.

[w1ntermute]

I don't think this is necessarily broken behavior. Photoshop has a splash screen too, and from what I understand, it's there because of the long loading time.

[wtallis]

A splash screen that can't be minimized, hidden, or covered up with a useful window is definitely broken behavior. I think it can only be implemented by abusing APIs meant for screensavers and full-screen games.

[tincholio]

Thank you kindly, sir, that worked! The current wrapper script is a bit different, but the same switch does the trick.

[atopuzov]

It uses GTK with Quartz support, which has it's quirks :(, and the GTK engine they are using looks nice (murrine + theme zukitwo). I been using Wireshark with GTK-Quartz in that mode for a few years (compiling on my own) but they have managed to integrate GTK menus to the Mac menubar.

[grannyg00se]

Doesn't behave typically on Windows 7 either. Clicking the window close button doesn't close the app, it closes the currently open document. Also, ALT+F4 doesn't close the app either, just the current document. This is in single-window mode where closing the window should close the app.

Fortunately CTRL-Q does what it's supposed to.

Oh, and great job GIMP folks. I love GIMP and recommend it often. I've even tried to convince some folks to stop using illegal Photoshop copies and switch to GIMP instead (so far I have a 0% conversion rate).

[hnriot]

so far I have a 0% conversion rate

that's not surprising given that the GIMP pales by comparison to photoshop. There's just no comparison. I think the high price of Adobe Creative suite has always been there because any professional uses it and buys it, but Adobe knows there are many illegal copies used by students and they just assume they one day will get jobs and then they will be paid users, meanwhile the illegal use is subsidized by the industry who doesn't care how much it costs because it gets the job done. By comparison GIMP is a toy. I know its a pet of the open source community, but commercial software with real designers and focus groups and product managers sometimes get it right.

[sbuk]

Photoshop is hardly a beacon of software done right. In my experience (been using Photoshop pretty much everyday since 1991) it has got considerably more bloated and unstable with each release, the exception perhaps being 5.5.

The benefit that Photoshop has is familiarity and Adobe's pricing structure is that of an abusive monopoly - they know they can charge as much as they do because they have a monopoly. This monopoly was earned in large part because early on, Photoshop was the most accessible app.round about 5.0 Adobe started to get sloppy.

I've started using Pixelmator for about half the image work I do on the Mac and IMHO it represents excellent value for money. It works like Photoshop used to do. It's lacking some feature, mainly the ability to work in colour channels, but for the price, it's hard to beat.

[mkup]

Also there's Paint.NET on PC. It's fast, not bloated with useless functions (yet), and freeware. I've switched to it from Photoshop a few months ago and never regret my decision.

[WickyNilliams]

I recently switched over to mac and was saddened to discover there wasn't any viable open source alternative to GIMP a la Paint.NET. GIMP is functional, but barely usable. Paint.NET on the other hand is great, on top of all the things you mention, it also has quite a good UI with some interesting features.

[bad_user]

Gimp has the ability to work with color channels. Try it out.

[bad_user]

Your comment is bullshit and lacks substance, the kind of opinion born out of ignorance, sorry to say it.

First of all, it is surprising because people put themselves at risk of fines or even jail by using unlicensed copies. If you don't like paying that much for software, then don't freaking use it and search for something cheaper. You don't freaking need all that functionality. Students and schools also get discounts. The many unlicensed copies out there are not used primarily by students. Also I worked for Adobe and I can tell you that they don't like piracy. That's one reason why they are moving towards a subscription-based model.

The difference between Gimp and Photoshop is that while Gimp gives you all the tools you need, it doesn't have an idiot mode, so it expects of you to know what you're doing.

A good example I can think of is Smart Sharpening. I don't know why the Gimp devs haven't implemented it. Maybe there's a patent on it or maybe they considered that it isn't worth it. Well, you can do it manually [1] ... it has the downside that it isn't something you can do in 3 clicks, so messing around to see how it looks is a little painful. On the other hand doing it manually makes you understand the process and allows you to have fine grained control, leading to better results, because truth be told, Photoshop has no way of knowing which edges are important in a photo and which aren't, so the results are not optimal.

This does scare beginners away and I wish that they implemented a nice wizard for what is standard functionality. On the other hand, it's actually quite easy to script such a wizard for Gimp in Python. So GIMP is designed for people that bend their tools to their will with a sharp inclination towards developers. It's not a good design because it prevents mainstream adoption, but for me it's like a breath of fresh air.

[1] http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Smart_Sharpening/

[activedecay]

I'm so sick of people like you who feel the need to defend GIMP. It's a fantastic piece of open source software that doesn't need your help and it shouldn't be compared to Photoshop.

Photoshop provides art and design professionals with a vast amount of resources and extremely customizable tools, some of which GIMP does not offer or provides with less opportunity for modification. I'm not about to sit here and type out how Photoshop is more powerful in the hands of someone who truly knows the program, but you seem to not use it for anything beyond the basic functionality that GIMP also provides.

"The difference between Gimp and Photoshop is that while Gimp gives you all the tools you need, it doesn't have an idiot mode, so it expects of you to know what you're doing." Talk about bullshit comments lacking substance.. I almost spit out my coffee. Smart Sharpening has been around since CS2.

GIMP is the best open source image manipulation software, a free alternative that provides most users with all the functionality they will need. However, it is NOT a Photoshop killer.

[bad_user]

     it shouldn't be compared to Photoshop.

But it is compared to Photoshop.

     However, it is NOT a Photoshop killer.

I don't think anybody here was talking about that. I also never argued against Photoshop having some advanced functionality that Gimp lacks or more resources available (it's a defacto standard after all). I don't like it when people are putting words in my mouth.

[activedecay]

That last comment wasn't directed at you specifically, just look at how many times the phrase "photoshop killer" is used in the comments on this article.

Yeah okay, you never argued against Photoshop having more resources available, but you criticized someone for saying there should be no comparison between GIMP and Photoshop because of "bullshit and lack of substance" while at the same time serving up your own steaming pile of bullshit: "The difference between Gimp and Photoshop is that while Gimp gives you all the tools you need, it doesn't have an idiot mode, so it expects of you to know what you're doing." I was just pointing out that there's a lot more differences than "idiot mode".

[stuaxo]

Wow, very cool tutorial.

Am surprised someone hasn't got round to making a script of it.

[forgotusername]

I'm confused. You double clicked an application icon, and the application opened? You seem to be conflating the popular hate for focus being stolen due to some non-consensual event, and the consensual starting of an app. If GIMP didn't have a splash screen, there'd be no indication it was loading at all (and it's one big fat app.. several generations of code including a huge chunk of Python loaded at boot).

[wtallis]

OS X app icons bounce in the dock while the app is loading. If it takes a really long time, a splash screen is ok, but a splash screen that sticks around for a full minute and thwarts every attempt to raise a window above it is just insulting.

[protolif]

I agree that they should change this, but I don't find it offensive, because I know that the GIMP project has been around since it was acceptable to get a cup of coffee while your app loads. I'm just saying, that they've got a lot of legacy code. I'm just happy that it works, for now.

[reitzensteinm]

Splash screens are fine, splash screens that are set to always on top are not. Important distinction.

[protolif]

The toolbox window is also set to 'always on top'. It's not a huge deal, compared to the x11 version though. I just open another virtual desktop for it in Lion.

[DigitalJack]

The icon bounces when an app is starting in osx. I am sure there are probably a couple, but normally Mac apps do not do splash screens.

[adgar]

It sounds like your parent poster is saying it shows the splash screen over all applications and there's nothing you can do about it. Which is needlessly inconsiderate.

[kstenerud]

acidblue, your account has been hellbanned since 149 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3790146

[semanticist]

Hellbanning can be really disturbing. This guy's been leaving comments for a year now with no idea that almost no one sees them.

That feels almost like a form of psychological torment to me. I recognise the value of hellbanning as a way to trap griefers, but I do think it's overused on HackerNews.

[ChuckMcM]

   Do: email pg if you're hellbanned.
   Do: Be civil and respond politely.
   Don't: create a throwaway account and whine about being    hellbanned.
   Don't: create a new account without talking to pg first.
   Don't: take it personally.

[tripzilch]

Is that from the guidelines? The whole point of hellbanning is that the affected user doesn't know they're hellbanned (HN appears to them as if they aren't). So they can't do nr.1 unless someone tells them.

This is a great article that explains very clearly why hellbanning is in 99.5% of the cases the absolute wrong choice as it's being used on HN: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/06/suspension-ban-or-h...

In addition, the guidelines can say "don't take it personally" all they want, but when someone wastes my time for 150 days when there are so many perfectly reasonable ways of solving the problem in common usage on successful discussion forums all over the web, yeah I would probably be a little bit miffed, myself.

It's one of the main reasons I keep an eye on my karma score, if it sometimes doesn't go up for a few days, I get nervous and check if I can still see my own comments via a proxy. It's absolutely ridiculous that I have to do it that way, but I've seen people get hellbanned for such petty things that yes, I really couldn't say I never will be one of "those people" that catch the wrong mod's attention at the wrong time before their coffee hit.