[kragen]

> If you're managing CGI scripts on a traditional server, you're still managing a server.

Usually somebody else is managing the server, or servers, so you don't have to think about it. That's been how it's worked for 30 years.

> Before PaaSes I don't think I've ever seen anyone once call CGI "serverless".

No, because "serverless" was a marketing term invented to sell PaaSes because they thought that it would sell better than something like "CloudCGI" (as in FastCGI or SpeedyCGI, which also don't use the CGI protocol). But CGI hosting fits cleanly within the roomy confines of the term.

[jchw]

Oh my god! This could go on forever.

Having a guy named Steve manage your servers is not "serverless" by my definition, because it's not about you personally having to manage the server, it's about anyone personally having to manage it. AWS Lambda is managed by Amazon as a singular giant computer spawning micro VMs. And sure yes, some human has to sit here and do operations, but the point is that they've truly abstracted the concept of a running server from both their side and yours. It's abstracted to the degree that even asking "what machine am I running on?" doesn't even have a meaningful answer and if you did have the answer you couldn't do anything with it.

Shared hosting with a cgi-bin is closer to this, but it falls short of fully abstracting the details. You're still running on a normal-ish server with shared resources and a web server configuration and all that jazz, it's just that you don't personally have to manage it... But someone really does personally have to manage it.

And anyway, there's no reason to think that serverless platforms are limited to things that don't actually run a server. On the contrary there are "serverless" platforms that run servers! Yes, truly, as far as I know containers running under cloud run are in fact normal HTTP servers. I'm actually not an expert on serverless despite having to be on this end of the argument, but I'll let Google speak for what it means for Cloud Run to be "serverless":

> Cloud Run is a managed compute platform that enables you to run stateless containers that are invocable via HTTP requests. Cloud Run is serverless: it abstracts away all infrastructure management, so you can focus on what matters most — building great applications.

These PaaSes popularized the term to mean this from the gitgo, just because you have passionately formed a belief that it ever meant something else doesn't change a thing.

[9rx]

> On the contrary there are "serverless" platforms that run servers!

That's the trouble when a term catches on — everyone wants to jump all over it and use it as they please.

This is hardly a unique situation. Look at SQL. According to the very creator of the relational model, SQL isn't relational, but the SQL specification latched onto the term anyway because it was trendy to do so. As a result, today, I think it is fair to say that "relational" has taken on dual meaning, both referring to the model as originally conceived as well as what SQL created.

If you wish to maintain that "serverless" now refers to both an execution model and outsourced management of computer systems, I think that is fair. However, it is apparent that "serverless" was originally popularized by Lamba, named as such due to its CGI-inspired execution model. Other angles came later.

[kragen]

Codd was happy enough to tout SQL as "relational" in his Turing Award address! Maybe you mean Date? He was involved from early on but didn't invent it.

I do think that SQL falls short of the relational-data-bank ideal in a number of important ways, and I mostly agree with Date on them. I just don't agree with Date's saying he's not contradicting Codd's early work.

[jchw]

OK good point. Let's see what Amazon describes the selling point of AWS Lambda is in the original press release from 2014; in fact, so early that it's actually not even the final draft[1]. Surely it will mention something about developers no longer having to write network server applications since (apparently) that is what the "server" in "serverless" is referring to (although this draft actually predates the term "serverless" entirely.)

> SEATTLE – (Nov XX, 2014) – Amazon Web Services LLC (AWS), an Amazon.com company (NASDAQ:AMZN), today announced the introduction of AWS Lambda, the simplest way to run code in the cloud. Previously, running code in the cloud meant creating a cloud service to host the application logic, and then operating the service, requiring developers to be experts in everything from automating failover to security to service reliability. Lambda eliminates the operational costs and learning curve for developers by turning any code into a secure, reliable and highly available cloud service with a web accessible end point within seconds. Lambda uses trusted AWS infrastructure to automatically match resources to incoming requests, ensuring the resulting service can instantaneously scale with no change in performance or behavior. This frees developers to focus on their application logic – there is no capacity planning or up-front resource type selection required to handle additional traffic. There is no learning curve to get started with Lambda – it supports familiar platforms like Java, Node.js, Python and Ruby, with rich support for each language’s standard and third-party libraries. Lambda is priced at $XXX for each request handled by the developer’s service and $YYY for each 250ms of execution time, making it cost effective at any amount of usage. To get started, visit aws.amazon.com/lambda.

Let me emphasize some points here:

> Previously, running code in the cloud meant creating a cloud service to host the application logic...

> then operating the service, requiring developers to be experts in everything from automating failover to security to service reliability...

> Lambda eliminates the operational costs and learning curve for developers by turning any code into a secure, reliable and highly available cloud service with a web accessible end point within seconds.

> there is no capacity planning or up-front resource type selection required to handle additional traffic

It is genuinely impressive how devastatingly, horrifically incorrect the idea is that "serverless" ever had anything to do with whether your application binary has a network request server in it. It's just not a thing.

We can talk about the parallels between CGI servers and Lambda all day and all night, but I am not letting this non-sense go. Serverless is not a marketing term for CGI.

[1]: https://www.allthingsdistributed.com/2024/11/aws-lambda-turn...

[kragen]

This is great, thanks for digging it up!

It does support the thesis that Amazon was attempting to prevent customers from realizing that what they were offering was basically CGI on a big load-balanced server farm, by claiming that it was something radically new that you couldn't get before, but their value proposition is still just the value proposition of shared CGI hosting. On a big load-balanced server farm. Which, to be perfectly fair, probably was bigger than anyone else's.

There is one major difference—the accounting, where you get charged by the megabyte-millisecond or whatever. Service bureaus ("cloud computing vendors") in the 01960s did do such billing, but Linux shared CGI hosts in the 01990s generally didn't; accton(8) doesn't record good enough information for such things. While in some sense that's really the value proposition for Amazon rather than the customer, it gives customers some confidence that their site isn't going to go down because a sysadmin decided they were being a CPU hog.

I agree that there's no evidence that they were talking about "servers" in the sense of processes that listen on a socket, rather than "servers" in the sense of computers that those processes run on.

Just to be clear, I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, but I'm really appreciating how much better informed I'm becoming because of this conversation!

[jchw]

> It does support the thesis that Amazon was attempting to prevent customers from realizing that what they were offering was basically CGI on a big load-balanced server farm, by claiming that it was something radically new that you couldn't get before, but their value proposition is still just the value proposition of shared CGI hosting. On a big load-balanced server farm. Which, to be perfectly fair, probably was bigger than anyone else's.

I loathe to be of service defending Amazon's marketing BS, but I think you're saying the selling point of AWS Lambda is that it's "like CGI", and that serverless functions are substantially equivalent to CGI. I disagree. The programming model of serverless functions is definitely substantially equivalent to CGI, but the selling point of serverless functions isn't the "functions" part, it's the "serverless" part. It would've had the exact same draw and could've even had a very similar programming model (The Lambda SDK makes your applications look like a typical request handling server, probably for development purposes) and ran multi-request servers under the hood and as long as it had the same billing and management most people would've been happy with it. The thing that unites Fargate and Lambda in being "serverless" is the specific way they're abstracting infrastructure.

Amazon could've and could still launch something like CloudCGI if they wanted to, and if it used the same model as Lambda I'm sure it'd be successful. If I had to guess why they didn't, the less cynical answer is that they just felt it was outdated and wanted to make something new and shiny with a nice developer experience. The more cynical answer is probably truer, because vendor lock-in. Even if they did launch something like "CloudCGI" though, it would still be a very big departure from anything people called "CGI hosting".

[9rx]

> but the selling point of serverless functions isn't the "functions" part, it's the "serverless" part.

Yup. That's right. The removal of the server from your application is the selling point. As you subtly hint at, exposing the application as a "function" is a clever API design to facilitate that, but I'm sure you could imagine other ways to achieve the same. It is the "serverless" part that is significant.

HTTP servers, while simple to implement in terms of basic function, aren't easy to design well. There are a lot of more complex considerations, like around security and scaling, which are easy to screw up if you don't have a good handle on what you are doing. All alleviated by just letting someone else, who specializes in it, write the server code for you. If you take the server out of your application, making it "serverless", it becomes much more difficult (I really want to say impossible, but abstractions always leak eventually) to screw that end up.

Which is a very compelling business case, allowing businesses to hire people who aren't experts (read: cheaper) in the intricacies of low level technical details that are outside of their core business logic. That's the selling feature, just like you (and Amazon) say.

Glad we got away from that bizarre definition thinking that "serverless" somehow takes physical hardware out of the picture. Maybe it has also taken on that meaning (as nonsensical as that idea is) through the twisting in the popularity wind – definitions are most definitely influenced by time — but it certainly didn't originate in that vein.

[9rx]

> Lambda eliminates the operational costs and learning curve for developers by turning any code into a secure, reliable and highly available cloud service with a web accessible end point within seconds.

Yup. "turning any code into a cloud service". In other words: No need to write complicated server-bits that can be easy to screw up. Just write a "function" that accepts inputs and returns outputs and let something else will worry about the rest. Just like CGI (in sprit).

It is great that you were willing to share this as it proves without a doubt that Amazon were thinking about (the concept of) CGI during this time. But perhaps all you've been trying to say, poorly, is that "serverless" is no longer limited to marketing just one thing these days?

[kragen]

> Having a guy named Steve manage your servers is not "serverless" by my definition, because it's not about you personally having to manage the server, it's about anyone personally having to manage it. AWS Lambda is managed by Amazon as a singular giant computer

Well, that's sort of true of AWS Lambda, but it's just as true of EC2 and EBS, which aren't called "serverless". Moreover, "serverless" is a marketing term used to sell the service to Amazon customers, who can't tell whether or not there's a guy named Steve working at Amazon who lovingly nurtures each server†, or whether Amazon manages their whole Lambda farm as a giant herd of anonymous nodes, so I don't think it makes sense to argue that this is what it's intended to mean. As you point out, it's kind of a nonsense term since the code does in fact run on servers. I believe you were correct the first time in your earlier comments that you are now contradicting: they call it "serverless" because the customer doesn't have to manage servers, not because their own employees don't have to manage servers (except collectively).

> enables you to run stateless containers that are invocable via HTTP requests. (...) abstracts away all infrastructure management

This is a precise description of the value proposition that old-fashioned CGI hosting offers to hosting customers. (The containers are processes instead of KVM machines like Firecracker or cgroups like Docker, but "container" is a pretty generic term.)

So I think you've very clearly established that CGI scripts are "serverless" in the sense that Google's marketing uses, and, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44512427, the sense that Amazon's marketing uses.

______

† Well, Steve would probably cost more than what Amazon charges, so customers may have a pretty good guess, but it could be a loss leader or something.