[davetron5000]

Yeah, that makes sense. Where I end up wanting mocks is when this happens:

1 - build first version of feature, all core logic in a class I can test conventionally 2 - logic gets complex, test gets complex 3 - Eventually, I need to create some layering, where the class from step 1 now delegates to other classes. The initial test is more like an integration test and gets harder to keep up

At this point, there is a camp that says I should be using dependency injection and inject null objects for the dependencies. I get that idea. I am in the other camp that does not want to make custom objects just to satisfy a test. A mocking system can do that for me. So that's what I would do - mock the dependencies. The "real" versions would be tested conventionally.

I definitely do NOT just start with mocking imaginary internals though - I guess that's a whole other camp :)