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by yincrash 339 days ago
With no explanation on the change, I will have to assume that taking off our shoes never made us any safer.
11 comments

The policy began as a direct response to the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt in December 2001 [1]. This was as America was still reeling from 9/11, and full body scanners weren't standard at airports yet. Now they are, and they've improved explosive detectors too [2].

It indeed seems like it was always something of an overreaction, but an understandable one that's now fully overlapped by superior modern scanning.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63_(2...

2. https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2022/10/06/f...

Edit: whoa, groupthink.

>Edit: whoa, groupthink.

Every time an article about airport security is posted the comments are the same.

To prove that I'm sane and my memory has not been corrupted by time or cosmic rays I google "airline hijackings by year", I look at the graphs in google images, and I briefly wonder what happened in early 1970s and 2000s before remembering what happened in early 1970s and 2000s.

Then I murmur "that's some fantastically effective theater".

can you find any stats on yearly hijackings that are limited to only flights where hijackers made it through american security, though? all I can find are global aggregate stats and its a bit unfair to credit TSA with preventing the hijacking of a flight from Heathrow to Dubai
I didn't mention TSA.

Most TSA, FAA, and airline operator policies and procedures are harmonized with ICAO and IATA policies and procedures. Of course, there are regional variations and differences between international and domestic flights within those regions, but for the most part things are consistent among all of the members of both signatories of Convention on International Civil Aviation (ICAO members) and IATA members.

The whole shoe thing was proposed someone who wasn't the US (I think the UK, but my memory is fuzzy-- damn cosmic rays), submitted to ICAO, voted on, and enacted by the US as a signatory.

>I didn't mention TSA.

Why not? Comment thread is about TSA. Article is about TSA. The policy is a TSA policy. Why expand the discussion to include things no one else is talking about, and why do it surreptitiously?

Also, this is from memory, but 'cotton wipe' tests for the compounds used didn't exist for several more years and a few more incidents.
Until 2017, The DHS Inspector General’s office found that 90% – 95% of dangerous items get through screening checkpoints in testing.

What changed in 2017? They stopped publishing the results of the testing.

I don't doubt that the screenings are security theater, but it is impossible to know whether anybody was scared off from even trying. A 10% or even 5% chance of getting caught is deeply concerning. It risks not just you, but everybody else in the plot.

It could well be zero: the turrurists aren't dumb and they also know it's security theater. But I have to admit that I genuinely do not (and cannot) know.

Certainly in the UK it was linked to this attempted attack [1] but seemed very specific like banning laser toner cartridges as they were an attack attempt.

[1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

IIRC the modern "raise your arms" scanners had not been rolled out in 2006 when the shoe policy was instituted. perhaps the TSA has realized there's no point in making people take off their shoes when explosives/contraband within are easily picked up by the new scanners.
The article implies that passengers who opt out of the "raise your arms" millimeter wave scanner and go through the magnetometer instead will not have to take their shoes off unless the magnetometer alarms:

> Passengers who trigger the alarm at the scanners or magnetometers, however, will be required to take their shoes off for additional screening, according to the memo.

I have opted out of the scanner at numerous airports over the past 20 years, without fail (dozens of times), and not once have I been asked to go through a 'magnetometer'. It's been a manual pat down every time.
It's been a few years since I've flown (and opted out of the MMW), but I recall being directed through the magnetometer first, then receiving a pat down on the other side. Maybe that was nonstandard.
I have always opted out of the full body scanner and always had to go through the metal detector followed by pat down.
Genuine question not from a judgy space but from an interested one.. what motivates you to do this? I feel like I would find the pat down far more invasive than someone seeing a sort of nude picture of my body.. again, I’m asking because I would like to understand, not because I’m judging the choice. Appreciate your insight!
Most of them arent mmwave.
Let me start by saying I'm no fan of the TSA having been traveling for business for 20 years. But we do know exactly why it was originally enacted. Which is that someone tried to hide a bomb in the base of their shoe to blow up a flight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

While we don't know why they've stopped, it could be any number of things: from they have other ways of detecting explosives that don't require your shoes going through a scanner, to they just don't think it's an issue anymore.

While a lot of what TSA does appears to be security theater, saying "it never made any of us safer" is a claim you have no way of backing up.

The problem with this theory is that plenty of times (not just for PreCheck flyers), they arbitrarily decide you don't need to take your shoes off. It's not a technology thing, because they change it back and forth at the same gate at the same airport-- I fly enough to know. And whatever they've changed it to, they bark at you for not knowing, as though you could've known about whatever RNG generates TSA policy this week.

It's a power play, nothing more.

> they change it back and forth at the same gate at the same airport-- I fly enough to know.

Are you using the same scanner machines every time? (They can look similar externally but operate on different principles)

>The problem with this theory is that plenty of times (not just for PreCheck flyers), they arbitrarily decide you don't need to take your shoes off.

At what airport? How do you know it's "arbitrary" - do you have some additional information the rest of us don't?

>It's not a technology thing, because they change it back and forth at the same gate at the same airpor

What airport? Because I fly enough to know they don't do that at LAX, SFO, SJC, or ORD.

>It's a power play, nothing more.

By WHO? The guy who implemented the policy hasn't worked in government since GWBs term. The random TSA worker has literally 0 say in the policy of taking your shoes off.

> It's not a technology thing, because they change it back and forth at the same gate at the same airport

Are you of the opinion that unpredictability has zero security value?

Doing something at random half the time is definitely better than doing it 0% of the time, or predictably half the time. From a security standpoint it's certainly worse than doing it 100% of the time. If you're randomizing day-to-day its pointless though. If you had something in your shoe, you could just walk away once you saw other people taking off their shoes. You're not obligated to continue. If anybody asks then you forgot your phone in your car.
Sure, randomly pulling people over or demanding access to their bank records might reveal patterns, but we supposedly have rights in western countries.
In general, no. In this specific case, yes
The claim is the old machines had issues with detecting and on the ground. First time I went through Heathrow after the incident. You had to take your shoes off and went to a separate machine. The shoes were scanned then you walked back... Plenty of time to put something back on the shoe.
Case in point : fly from EU to US, no shoes off. Same planes, flying over the same cities.
It’s always risk/reward. The risk isn’t only physical; it can also be intangible. For now at least, it looks like they’ve reassessed and decided it’s not worth the inconvenience.
It's due to new technology: https://youtu.be/nyG8XAmtYeQ
There is not a single thing in this video that addresses shoes. I want my time back.

video tldr: 3d x-rays have made bag scanners more effective at screening

and that it took 20+ years to prove that.
That seems like a childish and unreasonable assumption. In addition to the technology changes everyone mentioned, it could also have to do with other factors, like the actual threats the country faces, or the relative weight the powers-that-be place on the different sides of each tradeoff. It's not like this is a controlled experiment where every other factor is held constant.