[conradev]

The restaurant is not responsible for E. coli if it’s found, are they? Just cooking it out of the food

Suno can’t prevent humans from copying other humans, it can only make sure that the direct output of its system isn’t infringing.

[Greed]

You may be reaching the limits of the metaphor here, but restaurants are absolutely responsible for the e coli if it's found in significant quantities whether it's in the initial ingredients or the cooked end product. A restaurant is required to vet its suppliers and ensure food safety protocols throughout the entire process with several independent checks at many points, and is ultimately directly responsible if a customer sues. A restaurant does not get to cook bad ingredients well and then point at the supplier. They will find themselves shut down immediately, andpermanently if they do not resolve the situation.

In this context, this would be the equivalent of Suno explicitly placing stop points throughout the training, tokenization, and generation processes to verify that there was absolutely no chance of it generating copyrighted material through some kind of clean room reconstruction test. They would also need those tests to be audited at random by a third party governing body. Obviously they are not doing this, so the metaphor definitely does not track here.

[conradev]

The problem here is there is no “test” that is known to work here other than checking for direct infringement, which they have a responsibility to do (as they don’t have a license to the originals).

Anything remotely beyond that and we have teams of humans adjudicating specific cases: https://library.mi.edu/musiccopyright/currentcases

[Greed]

I mean, I was speaking more to the breakdown of the metaphor than the argument itself but if that's your response then it tells me that there is no reasonable way that Suno can ever really claim fair-use. I can't imagine being one of the artists whose material Suno has trained on and being told: "We have no idea when or if it will generate copyrighted content, or how to test for it. But we will continue to use your material and arbitrate on a case-by-case basis as it is brought to our attention." That sounds insane.

Surely, for Suno to claim fair usage and be given free reign to build a commercial business off of literally anyone's original works then the bare minimum bar for allowing that usage would be: make a satisfactory test to prove that you're always doing something transformative and original, within practical limits.